Possibly if you include Europa league results which are being compared against CL results in Benitez's first 18 games. A very quick check and on league form alone we were 4 points better off at the same point in Benitez's first season.
You're right, performance and promise is subjective. But as a Liverpool supporter (not a Benitez supporter or Hodgson supporter), I can safely say that our performances were far better at the start of Benitez's reign than they have been now. We were very inconsistent however when we were good, we were very good and played some excellent football. In comparison, we've struggled to beat Bolton, WBA and were even hanging on vs Blackburn in the last 20 minutes. There were clear signs that we were moving forwards in Benitez's first season, in contrast the feeling is that we're going backwards under Hodgson.
As for the CL win; you could look at it that way or you could say that Benitez took a weak side to a CL final and won it. Winning the CL is incredibly difficult no matter how good your squad is. All you can do is put yourself in contention, something which we done consistently under Benitez. We didn't win it again but we were getting to the latter stages with a genuine feeling that we were in with a shout. Something which never happened under Houllier.
And there's no comparison in regards to the squads both managers inherited. Benitez got Gerrard and Owen (who was set on leaving), a couple of aging decent players in Hamann and Hyypia and a handy player in Carra; the squad was all but worthless. Hodgson got Reina, Masch (albeit set on leaving), Gerrard and Torres, as well some decent players like Kuyt, Lucas, Agger, and others who at least had some sort of resale value.
It did. It underachieved but unlike 6 years before, you now had the likes of Villa, Spurs and City with very costly and competitive sides.
The promise that I refered to was based on the performances, style of play and general attitude Benitez brought to the club. Something that Houllier never had and Hodgson hasn't got either.
I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at with the rest of this. Yes the turmoil and H&G effected Benitez's last season, however as I said, we still underachieved. Yes, there has been as much turmold in Hodgson's start to his Liverpool career and it wouldn't have helped but still, he's taken an underachieving side and done worse with it, and shown little sign of improvement.
As for the general point:
I agree that some Liverpool supporters go ott and just criticise for the sake of it. I don't subscribe to this opinion that Liverpool fans on the whole haven't given him support, even though most didn't want him in the first place.
However, he is slowly but surely losing the support of supporters and not just down to results on the pitch. As I said 2 days ago, my biggest criticism of Hodgson is his clear lack of understanding of the football club and it's supporters. You don't criticise supporters for protesting against owners that are raping the club, you either support them or be diplomatic and say nothing. When asked about the possibility of Torres joining Utd, you don't say we'll cross that bridge when Utd make an offer, you tell Taggart to go **** himself. They're 2 very quick examples of Hodgson's lack of understanding which he shows most times he opens his mouth.
I can only speak for myself, however reading rawk and other LFC forums, the general feeling is that Hodgson isn't losing supporters because of results or even performances on the pitch, but because of his mentality and understanding of what it takes to manage Liverpool.
Just to keep it tidy in my own mind it may be easier to consider the following of your points essentially true:
1. The Cl and Europa league are different kettles of fish so could be disregarded in a like for like comparison. Friendlies and so on can also be excluded. I think we can agree that it's obviously not Hodgson's fault that he can't be compared on this. I assume also that in the performance swing that Liverpool must have done a little worse in the early stages of European competition in 2004 compared to now but that's by the by as it's a different competition.
So you have a league record of 12 games with a 4 point difference.
For the record:
Spurs D, Man City W, Bolton L, West Brom W, Man Utd L, Chelsea L, Fulham W, Charlton W, Blackburn D, Birmingham L, Palace W, 'Boro L *Edit Liverpool played Norwich after Man Utd and won 3-0, my mistake.
Benitez.
Arsenal D, Man City L, West Brom W, Birmingham D, Man Utd L, Sunderland D, Blackpool L, Everton L, Blackburn W, Bolton W, Chelsea W, Wigan D
Hodgson
people can cast their minds back as to the respective strength of certain sides in the different seasons if they wish.
2. The CL is a difficult one to win and being thereabouts is all you can really ask. No disagreement with this and Benitez did have you performing pretty well. However, again it should be said that you can not judge Hodgson on this as he has not had the opportunity with you so far. It's also worth noting that it required a change of rules for you to compete in Benitez' 2nd season iirc? You also did not qualify in his final season.
3. Your squad improved under Benitez and the one handed on to Hodgson was superior to the one handed to Benitez.
1 Poland GK Jerzy Dudek
2 Switzerland DF Stéphane Henchoz (to January)
3 Republic of Ireland DF Steve Finnan
4 Finland DF Sami Hyypiä
5 Czech Republic FW Milan Baroš
6 Norway DF John Arne Riise
7 Australia MF Harry Kewell
8 England MF Steven Gerrard (captain)
9 France FW Djibril Cissé
10 Spain MF Luis García
11 Czech Republic MF Vladimír Šmicer
12 Argentina DF Mauricio Pellegrino (from January)
13 France MF Anthony Le Tallec
14 Spain MF Xabi Alonso
15 Senegal MF Salif Diao
16 Germany MF Dietmar Hamann
17 Spain DF Josemi
18 Spain MF Antonio Núñez
19 Spain FW Fernando Morientes (from January)
20 England GK Scott Carson (from January)
21 Mali DF Djimi Traoré
22 England GK Chris Kirkland
23 England DF Jamie Carragher
24 France FW Florent Sinama-Pongolle
25 Croatia MF Igor Bišćan
26 Republic of Ireland MF Richie Partridge
28 England DF Stephen Warnock
31 England DF David Raven
32 England MF John Welsh
33 England FW Neil Mellor
34 Republic of Ireland MF Darren Potter
37 United States DF Zak Whitbread
41 England MF Mark Smyth
Owen, Murphy and Babbel left before the league started. Benitez also bought a few of these players; Alonso being notable as a success.
Squad
* 1. Jones
* 2. Johnson
* 3. Konchesky
* 4. Meireles
* 5. Agger
* 6. Aurelio
* 8. Gerrard
* 9. Torres
* 10. J Cole
* 12. Pacheco
* 14. Jovanovic
* 16. Kyrgiakos
* 17. Maxi
* 18. Kuyt
* 19. Babel
* 21. Lucas
* 22. D Wilson
* 23. Carragher
* 24. Ngog
* 25. Reina
* 26. Spearing
* 28. Poulsen
* 30. Itandje
* 32. Darby
* 33. Shelvey
* 34. Kelly
* 36. Irwin
* 37. Skrtel
* 39. Eccleston
* 40. Ayala
* 41. Hansen
* 42. Gulacsi
* 43. Bouzanis
* 44. Palsson
* 45. Ince
* 46. Amoo
* 47. Wisdom
* 48. Bruna
* 49. Robinson
* - Aquilani
* - Brouwer
* - Chamberlain
* - Cooper
* - Degen
* - El Zhar
* - Flanagan
* - Insua
is todays squad although obviously you've had mascherano leave as well as riera, a couple of those players have obviously joined after Benitez left as well.
4. Benitez and the squad underperformed last season (partly due to internal factors) This can also be be attributed however to the relative strengthening of teams not traditionally considered direct rivals.
A lot of teams have certainly strengthened over the years and the Premier League is a much more competitive affair with heavy squad investment lessening the gap between the 'big four' and the rest. Man City and Spurs are obvious cases in point although it runs top to bottom.
Perhaps it would also be useful to consider this increased competition when comparing the managers first 12 league games and their respective tallies? Could we also consider this when comparing the respective squad strengths each manager has had to play with? You appeared to partially attribute your poor performance last year to other teams strengthening so is it a possibility to say that the implication is that while the squad may have got stronger on paper it has relatively weakened in reality?
5. Hodgson hasn't underperformed less than Benitez did in his last season.
Certainly hard to disagree with, however, as a hypothetical if the same situation had been occuring when Benitez first took over I believe it's fair to say that he may have been affected (as indicated by a lower performance in his last season) and perhaps that 4 points difference in performance would have tightened somewhat further?
So to surmise, Benitez was 4 points better off in his league career with Liverpool and had played more exciting (though inconsistent) football, Benitez did well in the CL over his time with you but it would be unfair to judge Hodgson on that. Your squad is stronger on paper than when Benitez took over, though it is open to debate as to whether it has improved relative to the teams you actually compete with, the league has tightened up over the last few years and it is now more difficult to gain 3 points in games which were previously considered 'shoe ins' compared to the league of 04/05. Hodgson has also had a more fraught (for reasons outside his control other than actually accepting the job in the first place) first few months than Benitez.
As to the attitude and so on, it's entirely up to you what you're after and if you think that Benitez instilled that then fair enough.
