RTX 4070 12GB, is it Worth it?

[TNA]

AMD did it last generation too. Just look at the pricing of the RX6600,RX6600XT and RX6700XT in the UK,especially since they couldn't be bothered with selling RRP reference models in the UK(unlike Nvidia). Then look at the pricing of the RX5600XT,RX5700 and RX5700XT. Then the sudden price bump when Zen3 launched(and the motherboard pricing and segmentation of certain features on AM5). But at least,unlike Nvidia,AMD is still willing to drop prices after a while. Nvidia still seems to want to get rid of billions of USD of inventory at RRP or higher.

You can see for example amd is stuck with 6 cores for the last 6-7 years, the prices of which 6 cores amd has also increased. Yet the same people who criticized Intel for stagnation are silent now, even though amd is doing worse, lol

Yep. As soon as they saw a bit of success they become like Intel. Maybe not as bad, but I don't care, they should not be doing that and remembering they loyal customers.

Way I see it is like Telltale Walking Dead games when you make a choice and the game says X will remember that. AMD used to be in my good books, but each time they did **** like you said it would be like TNA will remember that

They have annoyed enough to the point where I may go back to Intel for my next CPU upgrade/recommendation

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Yep. As soon as they saw a bit of success they become like Intel. Maybe not as bad, but I don't care, they should not be doing that and remembering they loyal customers.

Way I see it is like Telltale Walking Dead games when you make a choice and the game says X will remember that. AMD used to be in my good books, but each time they did **** like you said it would be like TNA will remember that

They have annoyed enough to the point where I may go back to Intel for my next CPU upgrade/recommendation

Well I already got a bargain priced Core i5 10400 in 2021,when the whole sub £200 AMD CPU stack seemed missing in action.

 

[g67575]

I'm gonna wait for reviews, to see what clock speeds are possible...

It has to beat the RTX 3080 though...

 

[humbug]

Surely with laptops,it makes more sense to bundle their dGPUs with their own CPUs? That tells me maybe AMD CPU and GPU divisions need to communicate a bit better with each other. After all,think of the cost savings to an OEM? Although the RX7600 series being 6NM might indicate they want to sell a lot of these?

AMD's laptop / OEM market share has grown a lot in the last couple of years, but that's from 0, its still very small.

The thing is low power Zen 4 and RDNA3 are really very very very good, something about RDNA3 where it just doesn't scale that well at Desktop level.

But i don't know what sort of deals Nvidia / Intel have with this market, AMD are doing an enormous amount of damage to Intel in their own back yard but that's because AMD products there are so much better than Intel and Intel can no longer afford to throw money around to keep AMD out, doing that now will bankrupt Intel.

Nvidia are an entirely different kettle of fish, when it comes to the quality of thier GPU's Nvidia are at least on par with AMD even in the segments where AMD are at their best, Nvidia just aren't Intel, Nvidia are extremely competent. and AMD are fighting a war on two giant fronts.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

AMD's laptop / OEM market share has grown a lot in the last couple of years, but that's from 0, its still very small.

The thing is low power Zen 4 and RDNA3 are really very very very good, something about RDNA3 where it just doesn't scale that well at Desktop level.

But i don't know what sort of deals Nvidia / Intel have with this market, AMD are doing an enormous amount of damage to Intel in their own back yard but that's because AMD products there are so much better than Intel and Intel can no longer afford to throw money around to keep AMD out, doing that now will bankrupt Intel.

Nvidia are an entirely different kettle of fish, when it comes to the quality of thier GPU's Nvidia are at least on par with AMD even in the segments where AMD are at their best, Nvidia just aren't Intel, Nvidia are extremely competent.

It feels wrong to see RTX3050/RTX3060/RTX4050/RTX4060 dGPUs being bundled with AMD CPUs,when the RX6600/RX7600 series seem very competitive.

 

[Bencher]

Yep. As soon as they saw a bit of success they become like Intel. Maybe not as bad, but I don't care, they should not be doing that and remembering they loyal customers.

Way I see it is like Telltale Walking Dead games when you make a choice and the game says X will remember that. AMD used to be in my good books, but each time they did **** like you said it would be like TNA will remember that

They have annoyed enough to the point where I may go back to Intel for my next CPU upgrade/recommendation

Used to have full AMD build not a lot of years ago, but I got extra mad with them when they started pulling same / worse crap than intel / nvidia. Not for any other reason, but at least intel / nvidia are kinda...honest about being dishonest. AMD and it's fanbase pretends they are different, when they are not.

 

[humbug]

None of them are your friend or a charity. @Bencher.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

None of them are your friend or a charity. @Bencher.

Consumers are not charities either and don't exist to prop up foreign companies. Nvidia for example gets propped up by the US taxpayer:

These 91 companies paid no federal taxes in 2018

A new report from think tank says some of the biggest companies in the country had effective tax rates of 0% or less in 2018.

www.cnbc.com

In 2018,Nvidia paid no Federal Taxes at all. Not sure what AMD gets(but they do get government contracts),but Intel is getting money from the CHIPS Act too. As a UK taxpayer,since they are not UK companies and don't make stuff here,I don't feel the need to prop any of them up like a charity. If the US taxpayer wants to prop up their tech companies with handouts like the CHIPS Act,then unless a few billion USD comes our way in the UK,I would rather pay less and spend the money saved on UK businesses if possible.

 

[Tart]

I'm curious to know what things AMD has done that are worse than Intel or nVidia? I mean, they all do (or want to do) the same kind of things to lockout or stop competition. I'm just not sure that AMD are in the same league of things they could do that Intel or nVidia have done. I mean it pretty much requires you to have the majority of market share and money to throw your weight around and until very recently AMD did not have anywhere near enough of either.

To keep things on track I don't think RTX 4070 at £750 is worth it. If you're upgrading from something recent then the cost is prohibitive. If the cost isn't prohibitive then you've likely got money to throw at the problem and so why would you buy a 4070? If you're upgrading from something old and cost is a factor then you can get better price / performance upgrade and still have a significant jump from something cheaper.

 

[humbug]

Consumers are not charities either and don't exist to prop up foreign companies. Nvidia for example gets propped up by the US taxpayer:

These 91 companies paid no federal taxes in 2018

A new report from think tank says some of the biggest companies in the country had effective tax rates of 0% or less in 2018.

www.cnbc.com

In 2018,Nvidia paid no Federal Taxes at all. Not sure what AMD gets(but they do get government contracts),but Intel is getting money from the CHIPS Act too. As a UK taxpayer,since they are not UK companies and don't make stuff here,I don't feel the need to prop any of them up like a charity. If the US taxpayer wants to prop up their tech companies with handouts like the CHIPS Act,then unless a few billion USD comes our way in the UK,I would rather pay less and spend the money saved on UK businesses if possible.

Intel are seen as critical to Americas interests, little do these politicians know Intel's problems are due to a rival American company, not China, Politicians rarely know anything about anything.

And TSMC are no friends of China, they proved that over and over again by banning Chinese tech firms from using their manufacturing over and over again at the west's request, its clear whose side TSMC are on.

Having said that we can't rely solely on TSMC, i actually agree with Intel getting some government money to develop their own fabs, but as its tax payers money Intel should have no choice but to partner Nvidia and AMD in that venture, it can't just benefit Intel alone, that's hypocritical.

 

[rare]

Just look at what AMD have done with certain features over the years, making them essentially open standards, even able to work on competitor cards. Very different practice to Nvidia.

 

[Tart]

Just look at what AMD have done with certain features over the years, making them essentially open standards, even able to work on competitor cards. Very different practice to Nvidia.

I mean, absolutely, but at the same time you could equally argue that they're forced into doing that *because* they don't have a dominant market position. No vendor is going to care what they bring to the table if it can only run on AMD hardware and the majority of potential consumers ie sales can't use that feature.

They could well continue providing open standards if they get into a dominant position and I would hope that they do but my looking glass is on the fritz right now so....

 

[KompuKare]

BUT it will run fastest on their 5090 by double the frame rate of the 4090 and 4x the frame rate of the 3090.. but the frame rate was 24fps AKA DLSSX cinematic ultimate version with 5090 and of course won't run on 4090/3090/2080ti/amd cards/intel cards etc etc ....


Nvidia the only company I know that loves to shoot itself in the foot when they are onto a good thing... Also don't forget Moore's Law is dead... because they say so... while ASML and other companies that make semiconductor equipment would disagree and laugh at that statement. BUT if Nvidia says it it must be true, same was true when Intel use to say stuff back in the day too, till they were caught with their pants down too.

Mate it's just pure greed now from these companies and it's so obvious it's incredibly rude to their customers.

But don't forget that Moore's law has always been as much or more about the economics not just the technology.

That is, the cost per transistors.

Traditionally - from the mid 1970s until about 2015 - new nodes would come out; the cost per wafer would rise but the actual cost per transistor would still decline.

Since then nodes have still come down - and TSMC's progress is pretty impressive - but the cost per transistor has been pretty static. In fact, cost per transistor of a current node - after Apple have had their share - compared to new nodes has been going up.

There is a reason ASML are fully booked out and nobody else can compete with them. This stuff is very hard. And of course, what got Intel is not caring about lower margins, high volume stuff (but ask Qualcomm how "low margin" their mobile stuff actually is)*.

Obviously, fabless chip designers having near 70% margins is crazy, and their greed is near infinite - killing the golden gaming goose is not something they care about - but there are real technical and economic reasons why the econmic model of Moore's Law can be considered dead.

* I've said this before, but Intel's hubris has blinded them to their history: they were a so-so CPU designer who won the lotto by being chosen for the IBM PC despite much better CPUs - ask anyone who ever had to deal with x86 segmented code in the 1980s and 1990s when Motorola 68k CPUs had 32 bit address register since the beginning - and were able to use the huge volumes this gave them enough money to eventually kill all the high-margin, low-volume "we only do workstation CPUs" crowd. Then in the 2000s, Intel said "no, we don't care for low(er) margin stuff".

 

[TNA]

I mean, absolutely, but at the same time you could equally argue that they're forced into doing that *because* they don't have a dominant market position. No vendor is going to care what they bring to the table if it can only run on AMD hardware and the majority of potential consumers ie sales can't use that feature.

They could well continue providing open standards if they get into a dominant position and I would hope that they do but my looking glass is on the fritz right now so....

That's my thoughts too. Because as shown multiple times now, as soon as they are doing well a little they jack up prices. They are basically trying to do whatever they can get away with.

I don't think they went open out the goodness of their hearts. If they were that good they would have priced their products properly and not be asking silly moneys just because Nvidia are.

They don't get a pass from me for not being as bad as Nvidia. Maybe next time Nvidia give them an open goal, they can price products properly and gain some good will and marketshare.

Anyway, keep veering off topic. 4070 is **** too imo. Should be called 4060 and priced £349 or something like that. Price for performance just does not want to improve in a meaningful way in this price bracket.

 

[SpudMaster]

Used to have full AMD build not a lot of years ago, but I got extra mad with them when they started pulling same / worse **** than intel / nvidia. Not for any other reason, but at least intel / nvidia are kinda...honest about being dishonest. AMD and it's fanbase pretends they are different, when they are

Only the greenest of the green folk can say AMD are worse than Intel or Nvidia then give Intel and Nvidia a pass for being dishonest How are they honest about being dishonest out of interest?

AMD have let some of their good faith slip with recent releases but you can't compare then to past Intel cpu releases because AMD are still giving generational performance uplifts.

 

[rare]

Not sure how AMD are ‘worse’ than any other competitor. All of these companies exist for one reason, to make money for their shareholders. They aren’t out to do anyone a favour.

There are plenty of instances where every tech company has undertaken shady practices or made questionable choices.

At least AMD are there, and like I said before, they are much more open in terms of their technology and standards than their competitors - without them we would have Intel/Nvidia without any sensible competition. And that would be awful. Look what Intel did for generations when they had no real competition. You essentially got the same CPU with a handful of percentage point performance boost for years. And Nvidia have been pushing the pricing barrier for years since the days of Titan (and before).

We would all love AMD to provide a better or comparable product at a price that massively undercuts the competition, but they’ve arguably never been this competitive in terms of product portfolio for decades if not ever, looking at their desktop/mobile/server CPU and GPU lineup. So it’s only logical for them to price them accordingly.

 

[KompuKare]

Honest about being dishonest?
While it is good to be robbed in broad daylight than in the dark*, I am unsure if it is for me. Wasn't that the buyline for a certain former US president?

As for Nvidia value and prices, well it would be nice to think that kicking off a major stink about the 4070 would result in another climbdown like with the 4070Ti/4080, recently sighted 4050 laptops seem to indicate for most segments the model number is going, performance is staying the same and the price is being increased by the percentage difference between the old model number and the new one: 3050 to 4050 is about 33% (4050/3050) so there's the price increase, while offering closer to 0% performance increases. On laptop, it does use a bit less power - helped by being 6GB vs 8GB!

*at least once you get back on your feet, you won't fall over anything in the dark!

 

[Haz123]

AMD as a company made a loss for over a decade and almost went out of business a few times. When they finally had competitive products they needed to make profits to keep their patient investors happy. Nvidia have made a huge profit every year and have nothing like the financial troubles of AMD who are paying off huge debts have accumilated by being terrible for years.

AMD have had some very poorly priced products but they do not control the gpu market and are a bit part player compared to Nv who have a huge market share advantage. I would imagine they try to undercut the relevant Nv product by 5-10% and then let buyers make the choice , they do not seem that interested in selling large amounts of dGPUs and increase market share.

 

[Tart]

Yeah you can't complain that a company brings a good product to market and then doesn't give it away. They're all going to price it as high as they think the market can bear.

 

[g67575]

Yeah you can't complain that a company brings a good product to market and then doesn't give it away. They're all going to price it as high as they think the market can bear.

I agree - But - I think there's a problem with this lineup, because lots of people will probably decide to buy used RTX 3080s instead, especially for 1440p.

So it's important for Nvidia to at least beat it's own (older) products, in terms of sales.

10GB vs 12GB is fairly inconsequential for 1440p - The reason it's discussed so much on these forums is that many here are targeting / hoping to play at 4K resolution - But 4K (native or upscaled) is still a relatively small part of the overall market. I imagine they will keep pushing people to adopt it, as more people get 4K TVs / displays.

Additionally, there's also the RX 6800 XT (with 16GB VRAM) for the RTX 4070 to compete with - I think customers would want to see something like 10% higher performance, considering it's a new generation product.

I suppose Nvidia is hoping that customers will compare the RTX 4070 to the RTX 3070 (by setting their expectations at this level), instead of the 3080. I'm not sure how many will consider it to be a worthwhile upgrade from the 3070 to 4070 though.

Maybe Nvidia could maintain their advantage with an upgrade program, to make it cheaper for people with RTX 3000 series cards to upgrade if they trade their card in.