Scottish Inderef Mk2 - lets have a civilized discussion folks.

Europe is likely to fall apart Scotland,

Be smart about this and look long term. The way things are going with Europe is it any wonder we left? (i'm pro EU but I can also read the writing on the wall).
 
I dont understand Sturgeons motive really, and id be genuinely surprised if the Scottish accept that her way out and the further instability that will bring is somehow better than a hard brexit strategy for the UK as a whole to recover from.
 
CREATIVE!11 said:
Europe is likely to fall apart Scotland,

Be smart about this and look long term. The way things are going with Europe is it any wonder we left? (i'm pro EU but I can also read the writing on the wall).
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I don't think it will fall apart, but we're likely to see more countries leaving. Which means it will be a lot poorer and in the end they will have to be more flexible with trade.
 
Do Scotts living in the rest of the UK get to vote? Because the ones I've met living down here certainly don't want to leave the UK. They may end up in the same position as EU citizens in the UK at the moment.
 
Nasher said:
Do Scotts living in the rest of the UK get to vote? Because the ones I've met living down here certainly don't want to leave the UK. They may end up in the same position as EU citizens in the UK at the moment.
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Surely they will receive the same treatment as Irish citizens in the UK...

Before 1949, all Irish citizens were considered under British law to be British subjects.[57][58] After Ireland declared itself a republic in that year, a consequent British law gave Irish citizens a similar status to Commonwealth citizens in the United Kingdom, notwithstanding that they had ceased to be such. Thus, much like British citizens in Ireland, Irish citizens in the United Kingdom have never been treated as foreigners. Irish citizens have, however, like Commonwealth citizens, been subject to immigration control in Britain since the enactment of the Commonwealth Immigrants Act 1962. Unlike Commonwealth citizens, Irish citizens have generally not been subject to entry control in the United Kingdom and, if they move to the UK, are considered to have 'settled status' (a status that goes beyond indefinite leave to remain).
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I imagine not extending the same sort of treatment would be more of a hindrance to everyone than anything else.
 
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Nasher said:
Do Scotts living in the rest of the UK get to vote? Because the ones I've met living down here certainly don't want to leave the UK. They may end up in the same position as EU citizens in the UK at the moment.
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All the Scotts?! I know a few Scotts but only one of them is a Scot....
 
darael said:
Will Scotland just keep on having votes until they get the vote the want? This is all becoming a bit of a bore - let them dig their own grave.
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Well the system of government they have is meant to stop any one party getting a majority in local government. However due to Labour’s unpopularity and Scottish conservatives slowly rebuilding it’s not worked out that way.

Unfortunately if our Scottish neighbors keep electing nationalists whose sole purpose is the break away from the UK they will keep holding referendums as they have means to do so because they know this will probably be there last opportunity (there vote will eventually fall away enough so they can longer form a majority).

If I recall last time the vote was for anyone living in Scotland so if your Jock living in England you didn't get to vote.
 
Good news - the wall is there already and the guy who built it was a decent ruler and has plenty of experience.

Bad news for you you guys - Hadrian's empire looks suspiciously like the EU but with a few more 'Browner' countries thrown in. He is also dead.
 
Nasher said:
Are we going to make Scotland pay for the wall?
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It's going to come out of Nicola Sturgeons personal account.

Avenged7Fold said:
Good news - the wall is there already and the guy who built it was a decent ruler and has plenty of experience.

Bad news for you you guys - Hadrian's empire looks suspiciously like the EU but with a few more 'Browner' countries thrown in. He is also dead.
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Hadrians wall was merely a garden fence compared to what I have planned.
 
As I mentioned in SC, I think they should have a second referendum - I'm not sure they knowingly signed up to Brexit... sucks that's they'd have to apply to EU anyway though.
 
Nitefly said:
As I mentioned in SC, I think they should have a second referendum - I'm not sure they knowingly signed up to Brexit... sucks that's they'd have to apply to EU anyway though.
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But this is the issue really isn't it.

Brexit absolutely sucks. I think we are better off as the UK within the EU. But it seems thats absolutely not an option now, however tragic that is.

At best case scenario, and it seems unlikely, the choice is Scotland within the UK *or* Scotland within the EU. Now, I am a big fan of the EU but I cannot see the logic or sense in leaving the UK to instead join the EU. I can't see the case for it - all of the reasons why you'd want to be within the EU apply equally, with orders more magnitude, to why you'd want to be in the UK! The benefits of being in the UK surely outweigh those of being in the EU (And the benefits of the being in the UK and the EU are therefore the best solution, sigh).

We've seen the damage referendums on complex issues can cause - the answer is surely not yet another one.

We all voted as the UK and there are millions and millions of us who also voted against Brexit...

As for the manifesto commitment - I think this is a really flawed argument. Lots and lots of people voted Conservative at the general election - does that mean they all wanted an EU referendum because it was in the manifesto? Absolutely not - manifestos are huge and contain many many policies and pledges. I bet there are very few people who support every single word of the manifesto of the party they vote for!
 
Nicola Sturgeon does not speak for all Scots. I voted for the SNP in the last Election for the first and last time. Nicola Sturgeon if she gets her own way is going to ruin Scotland. The Oil has huge problems with no income, just like the rest of the UK she has problems with the Health Service, Police and the Education System, maybe problems with the Prison System just as seen in England over the past few months, so how is she going to fund this?. In the seventies when the vote for entry to the EU was cast I voted against going in. There is no way the EU is going to accept Scotland on its own as they do not want another Greece on their hands and the purse is just about empty. All that will happen now is like the last Referendum is the threats of what life will be like and the threats were bad then. The EU has its own problems and I cannot see it being the same when the UK leaves. For me the UK must stay together, I voted to stay and if needed I will vote again to stay. People have to think for themselves and what will happen in the future.
 
I voted YES at the last referendum, we lost and I respected that result. I'll vote NO at any future Scottish independence referendum during my lifetime - We should be working with the rest of the UK to strengthen our country not focusing on this yet again so soon after the last one. The SNP said it was once in a generation, so it bloody well should be. I dont' care what's changed, that's a fundamental breach of trust IMHO, I was informed that the UK could leave the EU as were all Scots at the time.

At this point it economically makes even less sense, we'd be weakened, there would be increased uncertainty in the remaining UK countries, we'd have no trade deals, outside the EU/EEC and our major trading partner (England) would be focusing on trade deals elsewhere.

I hope if the UK government give permission they tell them to hold it this year, sod waiting, I honestly think the SNP have made a huge miscalculation over this and I hope the tories take them to task for it but this could all just be a smoke screen for the local government elections in Scotland in May this year. Get people focusing on that rather than the mess the SNP are making in governing the country.
 
Halfmad said:
I dont' care what's changed,
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I don't disagree with a lot of your post but this point is absolutely bizarre!!
What was voted for no longer exists but you don't think that merits a new vote?
I don't think any vote/referendum should be unchallengeable if things change, no matter the timescales, do you think the brexit vote should have been allowed, i mean we voted to join up, might have changed but hey ho eh?
 
the_r_sole said:
I don't disagree with a lot of your post but this point is absolutely bizarre!!
What was voted for no longer exists but you don't think that merits a new vote?
I don't think any vote/referendum should be unchallengeable if things change, no matter the timescales, do you think the brexit vote should have been allowed, i mean we voted to join up, might have changed but hey ho eh?
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What I voted for doesn't exist? Nonsense, I was asked whether Scotland should become an independent country. I was not asked
"Should Scotland remain part of the UK, but only if the UK is part of the EU and EEC?"
or
"Should Scotland become an independent country and if the wind changes, we re-run this because we didn't like the result?"

A referendum, which at the time is said to be a "once in a generation" thing, should be exactly that. It should also be the case that when that result comes in it is respected by democratically elected politicians. What we have presently is a minority administration (SNP), asking a majority administration (Tories) to rubber stand a re-run. IMHO at the very least, as someone who voted YES last time, the SNP should have to get a majority up north to be allowed. I don't care if they've bought the Greens into their coalition to get a majority, the Greens didn't run on a "vote for us, we'll get you a referendum" promise.

As far as I'm concerned I live in a democracy and I take the decisions of the majority and I accept them. I voted against devolution, I didn't go losing my mind when it was passed, I voted for independence and again didn't go waving placards about when we lost that. It seems that those on the losing side don't understand they lost sometimes.

Thankfully I don't seem to be the only person who's flipping sides, my wife (who's English btw) has also decided she'll vote against if it's re-run and a few others who were well informed at the previous one about potentially leaving the EU etc and who have accepted the decision of the British people to do so, even if we voted against it.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/180642

^^ This gives me some hope we won't have another divisive referendum anytime soon though.
 
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