Scottish Inderef Mk2 - lets have a civilized discussion folks.

D3K said:
If the general consensus was that brexit would be a failed vote, which would essentially foster a feeling of unity, why would they want their separatist vote to come after that? Makes no sense. You're mental.
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Again...ASSUMPTIONS. They didn't bother to wait just 2 short years for the facts, THEY ASSUMED.

I'll quote this since you just don't seem to get it...

“Assumption is the mother of all ****ups...”

― Travis Dane - 1995
 
Dis86 said:
No, I think it would have been prudent to wait.

As it was...who was wrong here? Oh yes...those who called for the independence referendum to be held then.

Remember folks...once in a generation!
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So you want the SNP to break their pledge for election to wait to see if someone elses election pledges get them voted in in the future and that they actually stick to that pledge and that it goes the way that seemed incredibly unlikely at the time - and then follow through on your own election pledges (obviously whilst still maintaining your place in the Scottish elections without delivering on campaign promises)
Pretty straight forward, yeah total morons, you've convinced me...
 
the_r_sole said:
So you want the SNP to break their pledge for election to wait to see if someone elses election pledges get them voted in in the future and that they actually stick to that pledge and that it goes the way that seemed incredibly unlikely at the time - and then follow through on your own election pledges (obviously whilst still maintaining your place in the Scottish elections without delivering on campaign promises)
Pretty straight forward, yeah total morons, you've convinced me...
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When something as essential as the unity of your country depends on it - YES!

I'll say it again to see if it sinks in - all they had to do was wait 2 years. 2.
 
Even if another referendum was held in the next couple of years Scotland would still leave the EU as part of the UK as it will take time to split (quite a long time as we are far more intricately linked than the UK to the EU). Taking that in to account it would seem fair for the government to delay a Scottish referendum so as not to jeopardise the EU negotiations.

From the news it seems some think Scotland could be independent before the UK leaves the EU but I don't see how that would be possible?
 
I don't think the EU would want to take on an independent Scotland with the biggest budget deficit in Western Europe. Unfortunately the only thing keeping the union together is money, and that's why Scots will vote to remain part of the UK.

Getting rid of Scotland and Northern Ireland would be great financially for rUK, but there's little appetite from Dublin to take on the cost of reunification and the EU would be loosing the UKs contribution plus having to prop up Scotland's economy so wouldn't be keen on that scenario either.
 
Dis86 said:
When something as essential as the unity of your country depends on it - YES!
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Haha!! Seriously you expected the SNP not to follow through on an election promise made in 2007 and 2011 for something that hadn't even been discussed at the time?? You really haven't thought this through have you? Edinburgh agreement was 2012 setting the date for 2014 - if the snp had stopped the motion after the Edinburgh agreement they would have been completely unelectable forever! I'm not quite sure what kind of magical powers you think people in Scotland possess but i only know a handful of people who read tea leaves
 
Kaladon said:
Actually you know what? **** this. I was hoping for a civil discussion and yet theirs so many..... urrgh no I wont be dragged down by the folk just slinging out insults :/ You wonder why we wanna go? its this **** right here all prettied up and housed in Westminster.



im not allowed to walk away from my pc and go to work? I;ve to stay here and just be the 24/7 keyboard warrior you must be. Christ you must work for the Daily Mail.

Urrrgh can a mod now lock this **** show but keep it up as a shining example of what to expect when you would like a little discussion?
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I like you, you're funny - let us know if you find your dummy again and can string a sentence together without having a temper tantrum because not everyone agrees with your divisive Nationalist propaganda.
 
Vidar said:
Okay Kaladon, lets have a discussion then...

It's my opinion that a second independence referendum for Scotland now would be a catastrophic mistake with long lasting and ultimately unknown consequences for both the remaining UK and Scotland. As far as my understanding goes, a spokesman for the European Union has previously come out and said that there could be no special brexit arrangement for Scotland and that if it did break from the United Kingdom it would have to apply to join the European Union from scratch, it wouldn't be allowed to just remain under international law. If I'm correct on this then what is the plan for Scotland? As an independent nation can it sustain itself? If not will it ask Westminster to continue paying to its national budget?
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You are correct that Scotland couldn't just stay in the EU whilst England and Wales left. But that's for legal and bureaucratic reasons rather than a lack of willingness to admit Scotland on the part of the rest of the EU. Solutions have been discusses and the likely outcome as I understand it would be to do some sort of fast-track admittance to get Scotland in under its own auspices very quickly.
 
Angilion said:
I'd like to see the results of a referendum on English independence. I wouldn't be surprised if there's more support for it than there is for Scottish independence.
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Me too, make the decision for them since they can't do it themselves and are so reliant on suckling your teet. (am I doing it right?)
 
the_r_sole said:
And accurately predict the future and still be electable even after they would have backtracked on their election manifesto...
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They didn't have to predict anything. That's the point you can't grasp. They had to wait. That's it. Just wait.

As it stands...look at it this way.
The SNP thought first time around Scotland would vote to leave. They were wrong.
They made the case that oil would be able to fund Scotland. They were wrong. (Thank god they voted remain!).
They didn't think the Tories would get elected again (they must have thought this otherwise they would have known a brexit vote wouldn't happen). They were wrong.
They thought the UK would vote remain. They were wrong.

Yet you're defending them? These people who were wrong on so many fundamental questions to the future of not just every Scottish resident but to the uk as a whole. Like I've said throughout. They are morons.
 
Dis86 said:
They didn't have to predict anything. That's the point you can't grasp. They had to wait. That's it. Just wait.

As it stands...look at it this way.
The SNP thought first time around Scotland would vote to leave. They were wrong.
They made the case that oil would be able to fund Scotland. They were wrong. (Thank god they voted remain!).
They didn't think the Tories would get elected again (they must have thought this otherwise they would have known a brexit vote wouldn't happen). They were wrong.
They thought the UK would vote remain. They were wrong.

Yet you're defending them? These people who were wrong on so many fundamental questions to the future of not just every Scottish resident but to the uk as a whole. Like I've said throughout. They are morons.
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I can't go over it any more, it's clear you don't understand how time works or that people can't see into the future.
Perhaps you can just answer one question.
When the UK government said that Scotland could have a referendum (2012) based on the SNP manifesto in 2011 for a date in 2014 - how do you think they should have announced that they would postpone the referendum date until 2018/2019 until after the Tories had been elected on a promise of an in/out referendum on EU membership which wasn't yet on the cards?

I'm not actually defending the SNP, and I've never voted for them, you called the Scots babies or morons by making the most ridiculous and misunderstood post I've seen on this subject, have you ever heard the phrase "people in glass houses..." Maybe you should take note before calling out morons in the future, you make them look good
 
SlyReaper said:
My prediction: the No vote will win again, and by an even larger margin than last time.

While most Scots voted to remain in the EU, there's still that 38% who voted to leave. The vast majority of those people are going to vote No. They got the result they voted for, and the only way that result doesn't get snatched away from them is if Scotland remains part of the UK. So for the Yes vote to win, it needs a substantial majority of the remaining 62% to choose EU membership over UK membership. I don't think they'll get it.
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That is a very good point actually for quite a large number of Scottish voters, "The SNP is not only trying to over turn Scot lands vote to remain in the Union but but trying to also over turn your vote to leave the EU".

I actually think ironically Brexit could be the opportunity for the UK (Union) to come closer together as the country's depend on each other to work with the rest of the world. It'd be a shame to lose the Scots from the Union but we (NI, Wales, England and at last count the majority of voting Scots) just can't keep being held hostage every time a Nationalist party leader senses a moment to grab for power and hold the rest of the Union to ransom again. If a vote goes ahead it really does have to be "for a generation" this time. I have absolutely no problem in revisiting in 20 years (ish) once time has been given the chance for Scots to see if they are better or worse off in the Union again, indeed it makes absolute sense to, but every 3 years is just daft. We could be in a tough economic time now and in 6 years time booming, people need a little time to judge as a whole, not a short snapshot which may or may not be representative.
 
the_r_sole said:
I can't go over it any more, it's clear you don't understand how time works or that people can't see into the future.
Perhaps you can just answer one question.
When the UK government said that Scotland could have a referendum (2012) based on the SNP manifesto in 2011 for a date in 2014 - how do you think they should have announced that they would postpone the referendum date until 2018/2019 until after the Tories had been elected on a promise of an in/out referendum on EU membership which wasn't yet on the cards?
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I think you're selling Scottish voter short - they very well knew there was a reasonable chance for Brexit, assessed the options and voted taking that, along with other factors into account.

The Nationalist trick is to try to paint a united Scotland against the evil Union with Scotland being forced to do things no one agrees with. The majority of Scots who voted voted to remain in the Union on the basis it was a once in a generation decision, and made their decision based on that. The SNP is also trying to paint Scotland as united against Brexit where even then 38% of voters agreed with Brexit in a post "Remain in the Union" world.

It's not a unanimous Scotland versus everyone else the Nats try to paint and for the average working Scot it must be incredibly frustrating to get all this divisive crap dragged up again with the Scottish Parliament choosing to ignore them because they didn't vote the way the SNP required.
 
Macro said:
That is a very good point actually for quite a large number of Scottish voters, "The SNP is not only trying to over turn Scot lands vote to remain in the Union but but trying to also over turn your vote to leave the EU".

I actually think ironically Brexit could be the opportunity for the UK (Union) to come closer together as the country's depend on each other to work with the rest of the world. It'd be a shame to lose the Scots from the Union but we (NI, Wales, England and at last count the majority of voting Scots) just can't keep being held hostage every time a Nationalist party leader senses a moment to grab for power and hold the rest of the Union to ransom again. If a vote goes ahead it really does have to be "for a generation" this time. I have absolutely no problem in revisiting in 20 years (ish) once time has been given the chance for Scots to see if they are better or worse off in the Union again, indeed it makes absolute sense to, but every 3 years is just daft. We could be in a tough economic time now and in 6 years time booming, people need a little time to judge as a whole, not a short snapshot which may or may not be representative.
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It's interesting, what's your criteria for allowing a referendum then, would it be purely time based? How bad would it have to get before it was judged to be more than a snapshot at any given time?
I actually think there was no choice for sturgeon here, the better together campaign argued that voting remain was the only way to remain in the EU, now that has been proven to be untrue i would say that changes what some voted for. Not sure if the outcome would change but it's effectively a very different thing being voted on as remaining in the UK is no longer "the devil we know" everything is an unknown at this point.
 
waxapple said:
I'll just leave this here...

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1496611527022958&id=100000223744274
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I'll just leave this here:

"The EU has said an independent Scotland would have to join a queue of nations seeking membership of the bloc, after Nicola Sturgeon announced plans for a second independence referendum.

Wading into the debate on the Scottish Government’s plans for a second vote, a spokesman for the European Commission (EC) said Scotland would not be granted automatic access to the EU if it split from the rest of the UK.

At a briefing in Brussels, Margaritis Schinas said: "The Barroso doctrine, would that apply? Yes that would apply, obviously."
In separate remarks made in 2014, Mr Barroso said it would be "extremely difficult, if not impossible" for an independent Scotland to get the necessary approval from the member states for it to join the EU.

He said: "We have seen Spain has been opposing even the recognition of Kosovo, for instance.

“So it [Scotland] is to some extent a similar case because it's a new country and so I believe it's going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, a new member state coming out of one of our countries getting the agreement of the others."

Were Scotland to hold a second independence vote and then back splitting from the UK, the Government in Holyrood would have to apply for EU membership under Article 49 of the Treaty on European Union.
 
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