Six years in prison for a shag on the beach?

Skidder said:
Yes, a lot of people have historically died building cities. It has not been the habit of other major economies in recent years to import cheap labour, provide no healthcare or support, build shanty towns for it to live in, not allow workers to complain or move jobs within the economy rather than be deported and allow death rates to go up unchecked whilst burrying the existence of the problem. I'll leave that there, I get it, you don't give a **** and you have taken your stance.

That was one point of several which make me view Dubai as a less than stellar tourism destination. The majority of the others are related directly to the tourism offer, which is shiny but shallow.
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Thats almost exactly how most big cities in developing countries are built, the whole america's were built on imported(immigrants) workers living in literally, shanty towns at first. It depends what you call recent. ALso you simply can not compare the wages of a builder in the UK to a middle eastern worker, I ask you what job were they torn away from to risk their lives like this, nothing, they want to work, its not literal slave labour. Its massively low wages, comparitively, here, but its high wages for someone normally making 1/4 of that farming or something. You just can't directly compare these things, without these jobs and people being paid so little, the city simply would NOT be there in any way or form. So probably tens of thousands of jobs simply not existing, and lots of those workers dying in other dangerous, unregulated low paying jobs.
 
drunkenmaster said:
Thats almost exactly how most big cities in developing countries are built, the whole america's were built on imported(immigrants) workers living in literally, shanty towns at first. It depends what you call recent. ALso you simply can not compare the wages of a builder in the UK to a middle eastern worker, I ask you what job were they torn away from to risk their lives like this, nothing, they want to work, its not literal slave labour. Its massively low wages, comparitively, here, but its high wages for someone normally making 1/4 of that farming or something. You just can't directly compare these things, without these jobs and people being paid so little, the city simply would NOT be there in any way or form. So probably tens of thousands of jobs simply not existing, and lots of those workers dying in other dangerous, unregulated low paying jobs.
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I am not comparing wages to the UK, or anywhere else. I don't particularly care what they're paid and I understand the disconnect between economies. I am also not disputing the fact that many cities have been built on voiceless, imported labourers.

I think the only difference of opinion we have is that I think that for relatively little cost and red tape, certain basic human rights can be provided for without overly impacting returns for developers or economic impact for the government (read respectively as the ruling family's friends and the ruling family) while you think that it is acceptable to knowingly ignore suffering as there is precedent for doing so.

This is not some crackpot leftist view, it is a raging debate in the UAE and has been for some time. Developer profits have been higher than is typical eslewhere, fueled in part by cheap labour, but moreover by creation of the Dubai myth, if you build it they will come. The chinks are starting to show.

The extraordinary profits combined with continued (for the time being) oil wealth does, in my opinion, point to the conditions for workers being unnecessarily harsh, in this supposedly forward looking, civilised, ultra-modern metropolis.
 
Yes, Dubai is a luxury resort, as I said, theres not a huge amount of stuff there, its whole concept on surviving, or a large part of the idea, is to get to a stage where it can become an unbeatable tourist attraction. THis will take, millions, billions, trillions even. You might think the developers are making billions of pounds, but think of the risk they are taking if Dubai becomes a ghost town with no one going there, they'll lose billions aswell.

I didn't say it was fine, or that I don't think its a shame, I did say it wouldn't stop me visiting as it would happen with or without me visiting. Of course, if all the jobs dissappear from lack of work, what jobs exactly, do you think these people will be doing, for more wages and better conditions?

THe if you build it they will come-thing, is exactly my point, if they can't continue to expand at a certain rate, and make it into a fully fledge city with lots of stuff to do, the chinks will show, the danger of no one really wanting to go their is huge, and the people who own those buildings, will have a lot of very very very expensive, very very empty hotels and offices. THose developers actually, and infact DO need those profits, so they can continue to build in the same extravagant, almost stupid way they are doing. What you think are insignificant costs, won't be insignifcant in any way.

Once you get health care, then dental is hard to refuse, then better housing is hard to refuse, then better wages to pay for rent is hard to refuse, then better safety regulations are hard to refuse, then unions and or strikes to fight for these things become common place and so on and so on. THe thing is, not only will it lead to a massive cost increase in building, driving away developers, it will massively increase the time taken to build things, which in turn, will hurt the city to a large degree. At the end of the day, these people are only living in terrible conditions by western/rich standards, but from the jobs they'd be doing otherwise, I'm not so sure they are living in terrible conditions.

If increase safety and living conditions, lead to them all losing their jobs and going back to much worse, more dangerous and worse paid jobs, is that a good thing?

IN a perfect world everyone would be equally safe and have great wages and great healthcare, in the real world, paying them more and giving them a great life, is likely to lead to massive job losses, and most of them going on to much worse conditions elsewhere, so yes, if thats the choice I prefer they live a better life than they can otherwise find, but working there. You can't ignore their situation, or ignore what jobs and what living conditions they'd have if they were somewhere else in the region doing the same work.
 
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i'm kinda disapointed by Dubai laws, it's so stupid come on this is not middle age anymore, people do actually shag :o

More so when arab people come over to Europe they don't care one bit for the laws or customs over here and ask for swimming pool for women only, be able to wear the turban(that must not be the word, the cloth women have to wear in their religion) at school etc.. Europe is a laic region, we don't want religion to interfer with laws and such...
 
drunkenmaster said:
Yes, Dubai is a luxury resort, as I said, theres not a huge amount of stuff there, its whole concept on surviving, or a large part of the idea, is to get to a stage where it can become an unbeatable tourist attraction. THis will take, millions, billions, trillions even. You might think the developers are making billions of pounds, but think of the risk they are taking if Dubai becomes a ghost town with no one going there, they'll lose billions aswell.

I didn't say it was fine, or that I don't think its a shame, I did say it wouldn't stop me visiting as it would happen with or without me visiting. Of course, if all the jobs dissappear from lack of work, what jobs exactly, do you think these people will be doing, for more wages and better conditions?

THe if you build it they will come-thing, is exactly my point, if they can't continue to expand at a certain rate, and make it into a fully fledge city with lots of stuff to do, the chinks will show, the danger of no one really wanting to go their is huge, and the people who own those buildings, will have a lot of very very very expensive, very very empty hotels and offices. THose developers actually, and infact DO need those profits, so they can continue to build in the same extravagant, almost stupid way they are doing. What you think are insignificant costs, won't be insignifcant in any way.

Once you get health care, then dental is hard to refuse, then better housing is hard to refuse, then better wages to pay for rent is hard to refuse, then better safety regulations are hard to refuse, then unions and or strikes to fight for these things become common place and so on and so on. THe thing is, not only will it lead to a massive cost increase in building, driving away developers, it will massively increase the time taken to build things, which in turn, will hurt the city to a large degree. At the end of the day, these people are only living in terrible conditions by western/rich standards, but from the jobs they'd be doing otherwise, I'm not so sure they are living in terrible conditions.

If increase safety and living conditions, lead to them all losing their jobs and going back to much worse, more dangerous and worse paid jobs, is that a good thing?

IN a perfect world everyone would be equally safe and have great wages and great healthcare, in the real world, paying them more and giving them a great life, is likely to lead to massive job losses, and most of them going on to much worse conditions elsewhere, so yes, if thats the choice I prefer they live a better life than they can otherwise find, but working there. You can't ignore their situation, or ignore what jobs and what living conditions they'd have if they were somewhere else in the region doing the same work.
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You make a very logical lay persons case but you are vastly exaggerating the cost to developers and the government of making inroads to a safer working environment. My comments on this, the tourism development route the country is taking and the tourism offer are from a very well informed viewpoint. I am an economist specialising in leisure and tourism real estate, I advise developers on the feasibility of their projects and governmemnts on the feasibility of their tourism strategy. i have been involved in many projects in Dubai, for western developers and institutions, local developers, government owned corporations and the government itself.

The strategy the government has for tourism is enviable but over ambitious in terms of timing and has already proven flawed.

In my opinion there is no point in arguing this further. Agree to disagree?
 
I have to make sure i don't take DRUGS THAT ARE ILLEGAL HERE like weed, over there,
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Tell that to the guy serving four years for having a fraction of a gram of weed stuck to the sole of his shoe. Or the Swiss guy who got thrown in jail for having poppy seeds from a sandwich down the front of his shirt.

I'd never visit Dubai. It's simply not worth the risk. And that's before you consider the way they treat women.
 
MadMossy said:
You mean like all the Muslims respect our laws who in the UK.

Double standards is what it is!.
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its not double standards, its just the laws over here no one cares about, no one puts THEIR foot down. a murderer gets sentenced life in prison, then gets out in 3 years... what law is that? even the people who give out the punishments dont care, let alone other ethenic groups.

its not double standards, its this country sucks to the core that the law doesnt have much of that great effect on people. people here get treated well in prison, countries who really want to clean the society up embrace the law, so people actually take notice of what theyre doing is wrong, hence harsher sentences

memory said:
6 years is ridiculous...they should take into account where she is from...she aint an arab or muslim so shouldnt have the same law applied to her.
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LOL! yea, so do i get special treatment for being a difference ethnicity then?

tbh i dont care where shes from, basically its my house my rules, same goes for her. their country their laws, dont try and twist and turn the situation just because shes british it doesnt matter.
 
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Well, a bit of an update. It appears perhaps the woman in question has not done anything too naughty.

I feel sorry for her going through what seems like hell at the moment, but still believe she should have stuck to the laws of the land. However if it appears she didn't really break them in the way that was originally reported..
 
Tunney said:
Tell that to the guy serving four years for having a fraction of a gram of weed stuck to the sole of his shoe. Or the Swiss guy who got thrown in jail for having poppy seeds from a sandwich down the front of his shirt.
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Tunney said:
I'd never visit Dubai. It's simply not worth the risk. And that's before you consider the way they treat women.
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Stuff that other guy, THIS is the good post

Seriously, i was married to a middle-east girl. divorced after 3 years. Every Arab i have ever met was a complete mentalists. They have a superiority complex that i have no idea where they get. And want everyone to conform to there way of thinking, not giving a **** about your own thoughts. Stuff the lot of them and there rubbish, boring, overrated, over expensive country.
 
starfighter said:
Luckily she wasn't raped. Would have been 10 years for going out alone and asking for it. **** :D
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For goodness sake... Get a grip man! You know next to nothing about this case yet go throwing terms like that around... Having fun sitting on your couch throwing out justice? :rolleyes:
 
Serves her right for getting her tuppence tickled in public.

Several beers and she probably thought she was a hot bit of stuff anyway and so wanted to show herself off. I bet if she was a looker, her picture would have been all over the place. As it is not, my bet is she looks like a Monkey taking a dump.
 
Wiggins said:
Serves her right for getting her tuppence tickled in public.

Several beers and she probably thought she was a hot bit of stuff anyway and so wanted to show herself off. I bet if she was a looker, her picture would have been all over the place. As it is not, my bet is she looks like a Monkey taking a dump.
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*Shudders at the rhetoric from another couch judge*

Amazing the nonsense/muck that comes from peoples mouths when safetly tucked away at the end of an internet cable...
 
NeilFawcett said:
If her statement is true (??) then what laws did she break? It's against the law to hug and kiss? :confused:
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funnily enough i believe it is against the law to kiss in public in dubai

As far as im concered laws are laws whether you agree with them or not you have to obey them or accept the consequences
 
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