Star Wars VIII : The Last Jedi [WARNING: SPOILERS]

[ChroniC]

It seems so very bizarre that all the setups from the TFA were shot down in TLJ.
Fin being pointless, Snoke being built up to die so quick, Kylo going to the darkside only to not really, is he good or bad who knows. Rae parents being no one, or are they (is that even going to be continued) Luke being built up to be basically nothing more than a projhectile hologram. Amongst so many things.
Seems directors don't even have to try these days. The franchise wins no matter what.

 

[Grandmaster Fap!]

I cant remember where but i watched a video, maybe Kevin Smith; he had talked with Rian Johnson and Disney basically told him you can do what you want, free reign. Dont know how true it is but as much as i thought JJ's New Hope 2.0 was a weak copy, they basically threw away anything that could have some sort of emotional context in the next film. Whats the point of investing in the mystery of Snoke and Rey's heritage if you just let a new director throw it all in the garbage!? I actually dont give a **** what happens in the next film.

 

[Nitefly]

It seems so very bizarre that all the setups from the TFA were shot down in TLJ.
Fin being pointless, Snoke being built up to die so quick, Kylo going to the darkside only to not really, is he good or bad who knows. Rae parents being no one, or are they (is that even going to be continued) Luke being built up to be basically nothing more than a projhectile hologram. Amongst so many things.
Seems directors don't even have to try these days. The franchise wins no matter what.

I cant remember where but i watched a video, maybe Kevin Smith; he had talked with Rian Johnson and Disney basically told him you can do what you want, free reign. Dont know how true it is but as much as i thought JJ's New Hope 2.0 was a weak copy, they basically threw away anything that could have some sort of emotional context in the next film. Whats the point of investing in the mystery of Snoke and Rey's heritage if you just let a new director throw it all in the garbage!? I actually dont give a **** what happens in the next film.

Again, I have a completely different take on this. Rey’s parents being nobodies and a quick Snoke death was the LAST thing anyone was expecting after TFA. Also, Luke flirting with the dark side (to kill Kylo) was interesting and, again, unexpected. Fin’s adventure leading to failure - again, unexpected. I found all of that surprising, therefore engaging. Surely it would have been predictable / boring to find out Rey was Luke’s daughter, Snoke escapes to fight another day, Fin saves everyone (against hopeless odds) and that Luke became the new Yoda.... right?

 

[dannyjo22]

It wouldn't even surprise me with this now festering **** if Luke isn't actually dead and they bring him back as some Disney up lift. I will still watch them but when they hit Netlix or Blue Ray.

 

[Steampunk]

Again, I have a completely different take on this. Rey’s parents being nobodies and a quick Snoke death was the LAST thing anyone was expecting after TFA. Also, Luke flirting with the dark side (to kill Kylo) was interesting and, again, unexpected. Fin’s adventure leading to failure - again, unexpected. I found all of that surprising, therefore engaging. Surely it would have been predictable / boring to find out Rey was Luke’s daughter, Snoke escapes to fight another day, Fin saves everyone (against hopeless odds) and that Luke became the new Yoda.... right?

But to me, all that did was rob the film of any kind of heroic mythos. Sure things were surprising, but also disappointing and unsatisfying. TFA sets up lots of questions, starts to build mythos on top of the previous Star Wars films, but TLJ just throws that all away in favour of spectacular, but ultimately empty visual effects and forced comedy. It doesn't matter how spectacular the explosion is if we don't care about the characters. It's a very shallow film that doesn't take the story or the characters anywhere significant.

They could have done so much more. I remember when I watched "The Avengers" or "Guardians Of The Galaxy" and was just blown away by how good it was and how everything just fit together right. TFA/TLJ should have been at least as good as that, but it's as if they didn't really try very hard. TFA at least makes an effort and sets things up, TLJ doesn't even bother to do that. They just wanted to take the money and run.

 

[Raymond Lin]

But to me, all that did was rob the film of any kind of heroic mythos. Sure things were surprising, but also disappointing and unsatisfying. TFA sets up lots of questions, starts to build mythos on top of the previous Star Wars films, but TLJ just throws that all away in favour of spectacular, but ultimately empty visual effects and forced comedy. It doesn't matter how spectacular the explosion is if we don't care about the characters. It's a very shallow film that doesn't take the story or the characters anywhere significant.

They could have done so much more. I remember when I watched "The Avengers" or "Guardians Of The Galaxy" and was just blown away by how good it was and how everything just fit together right. TFA/TLJ should have been at least as good as that, but it's as if they didn't really try very hard. TFA at least makes an effort and sets things up, TLJ doesn't even bother to do that. They just wanted to take the money and run.

But it is the middle film of the trilogy, and you have to kick the heroes down a notch or 2 before they come back kicking ass in the 3rd instalment. The harder they were kicked down the more heroic the come back will be.

 

[G-MAN2004]

But it is the middle film of the trilogy, and you have to kick the heroes down a notch or 2 before they come back kicking ass in the 3rd instalment. The harder they were kicked down the more heroic the come back will be.

Then why is Empire considered the best?

 

[Steampunk]

But it is the middle film of the trilogy, and you have to kick the heroes down a notch or 2 before they come back kicking ass in the 3rd instalment. The harder they were kicked down the more heroic the come back will be.

But how that happens is important. There was nothing like the classic "hero finds out what his destiny is", "hero leaves unprepared in order to save his friends", "hero gets knocked down, loses his way", etc. There's nothing to come back from and nothing to come back to (the Republic is gone, the Jedi are gone). Are we just looking at some kids who have a bit of force sensitivity? Is it now just Rey vs Kylo and nothing else going on?

 

[Shamikebab]

How are the jedi gone? There is still Rey, she has the jedi training books. We have no idea what her plans are.

 

[Nitefly]

But to me, all that did was rob the film of any kind of heroic mythos. Sure things were surprising, but also disappointing and unsatisfying. TFA sets up lots of questions, starts to build mythos on top of the previous Star Wars films, but TLJ just throws that all away in favour of spectacular, but ultimately empty visual effects and forced comedy. It doesn't matter how spectacular the explosion is if we don't care about the characters. It's a very shallow film that doesn't take the story or the characters anywhere significant.

I didn’t find it disappointing but I do appreciate what you mean regarding the mythos, although in some ways it sets up for a new aspects of mythos / legend in the universe, as in how Luke saved everyone by ‘being super awesome’.

Some humour was a little out of place, notably the pantomime ginger guy (who was Dick Dastardly-esque) but I think it would have come across as too brooding without any silly humour to mix it up. I totally agree that GOTG was ace and the humour ideally should have been as equally slick in TLJ.

We obviously have different views, don’t worry I won’t bore you to death with an opposing opinion

 

[Nitefly]

How are the jedi gone? There is still Rey, she has the jedi training books. We have no idea what her plans are.

Shirley start up a new Jedi school using dem books? In the outro to the next film.

Then again, I did say that Luke would be Kylo’s father

 

[v0n]

I feel the opposite - TFA was, as Easyrider said all along (notoriously!), a total rehash of the original film. By comparison, TLJ was much ‘fresher’ and I was genuinely intrigued as to where it was going.

Don't see how you can be angry that TFA was rehash of ANH, when the plot of TLJ reused all three acts of TESB back to front.

Let's forget about plot holes and problems TLJ introduced for a moment and let's discuss why TFA was better than TLJ.

TFA was "better" because despite its obvious flaws and MaryJaneisms, there was still hope. Hope that the plot we embarked on following for a better part of a decade actually leads somewhere. There was a mystery of who the leading character was and why was she so strong, there was a build up, there was a villain, and a villain leading him to villainy. There was a secret leading to Jedi and a Jedi master on the horizon to save them all, to train them all, to put this plot hole ridden mess in its rightful tracks.

Today we know it was all leading nowhere. TLJ threw it all away. It killed the villain, it killed the saviour, it threw away all the answers:

Where TFA introduced us to the most intuitive powerful force wielder in the history of force wielders, TLJ's answer to how she could teach herself in few days what even the most powerful "one to bring balance to the Force" Force user we witnessed - Anakin - had to learn for twenty plus years - turned out to be - "doesn't matter, she's nobody, she comes from the short and abrupt line of bums and nobodies who drunk themselves to death". Hmmkay?

Where TFA based its entire plot on looking for Luke and us following all the people that died protecting, looking and fighting for a secret map to a secret location where the Last of The Jedis was hiding, TLJ told us that Jedi rules were bad and their legacy is not worth saving ("page turners they were not") and that Luke, who we followed since 1977, was mentally unstable **** trying to murder his sister's and best friend's kid, then decided to be a bum and won't help anyone with anything. In fact he's so set on doing nothing that in the end he literally managed to work himself to death so nothing at all was done. Hmmkay?

Where TFA posed all the questions for us - who is First Order, who is the extraordinary dark force master behind them, how did they rise to power, who is Maz, tell us the stories "for another time", TLJ literally urinated on them, chucked them across shoulder, snapped them in half and lolled over them.

TLJ is "after me comes the flood" FU finger to the new trilogy. By the end of part 2 in this series we now know everything we were anticipating in this trilogy - who Rey is (nobody), we know that Han, Luke and Leia (she's no longer with us to be part of Ep 9) are dead, we know what happened to the uber villain, we know the hormonal funny villain is unredeemable (he killed Han after all, so even if he gives his high pants protected kidneys to poor casino planet stable kids we couldn't care less). So what is there for us to anticipate in Ep 9? What story could it possibly tell us? That Rey will fight Kylo and win? That any army, of any size under Ren and Hux is bound to be defeated? That Rebels will rise once again? That Porgs will live happily ever after in Millennium Falcon? Oh phuueeeelleeeeze....

 

[PlacidCasual]

I feel your pain.

 

[Nitefly]

@v0n haha good post made me laugh

I don’t think a film is made necessarily better by alluding to things yet to come that don’t actually happen within that film - it sounds like that’s a reason to poo poo TLJ rather than to big up TFA. I get what you mean though, it set expectations for future plots.

TLJ definitely echoes ESB but there were more differences than similarities. The major plot elements of TFA were ripped, even chronologically, straight from ANH - although yes there were also plenty of differences between the two. I really don’t feel that TLJ copied ESB explicitly other than perhaps ‘empire is epically overpowered’, ‘cant run away hurrrrghn’ and ‘fake Hoth’.

I like Star Wars feeling this fresh and I was a bit tired of the series treading over old ground. Yup, kill off the old players - make it new, fine by me.

Also, TFA having the whole ‘R2 was asleep and had the map all along’ cheesed me right off in the cinema. That was soooo, soooooooo cheap! There wasn’t anything quite that bad here, floating in space aside!

 

[v0n]

TLJ definitely echoes ESB but there were more differences than similarities. The major plot elements of TFA were ripped, even chronologically, straight from ANH

So was the plot of TLJ, seriously, let's look at the structure of Empire Strikes Back in reverse:

Act III
- Protagonist (an inexperienced force user equipped with a light sabre he/she inherited through his/her earlier adventures) attempts to find an old Jedi master, as far as we know, the last one in existence.
- Protagonist asks old Jedi master to train him/her, instead the master is hesitant, effs about but eventually gives him/her handful of basic tips, some basic training in lifting stones, feeling things etc
- Old Jedi master warns protagonist about dark side lurking nearby, protagonist ignores warning, "goes there", gets spooked when the dark side only show him/her his/her own reflection
- With training unfinished protagonist decides to go and face the villain, the old Jedi master thinks he/she is not ready
- Protagonist ignores warning, goes to face the villain, things do not go according to plan, parentage is revealed, offer to "rule the galaxy together" is thrown onto the dance floor for good measure

Act II
- after a short space adventure, due to inability to use hyperspace travel to escape enemy forces, group of side kicks to main protagonist embark on a mission to locate a man that can help them (with survival)
- The man they were hoping would help them is forced by the circumstances to turn on them, betrayal ensues, they fall into the trap of enemy forces then escape with help of a droid.

Act I
- Bunch of remaining rebel forces are hiding in run down base on white planet
- Enemy forces led by villain in black locate them, send serious fire power including AT-ATs to destroy them
- Battle ensues, rebel forces try to defend the base with antiquated equipment
- handful of main characters barely escape with their lives in Millennium Falcon

Does that sound like something you've just watched this Xmas?

 

[Nitefly]

@v0n I acknowledge many of those themes (save for the ones you’re being a bit liberal with) but ESB and TLJ are wildly different in execution and emphasis.

Meanwhile, TFA is pretty much ‘hide info in a droid, hunt for droid, there’s a big mega base, kill the megabase’.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Then why is Empire considered the best?

Now it is, but at the time it was a very mixed bag.

I don't think you have ever read the initial review for Empire Strikes back when it first came out did you? I don't know what fans thought at the time en-mass as there was no internet so there was no written record but we do have some reviews. Let's see some of the big ones. We all know now 38 years on how history have turn and look Empire as the best but before anyone write off this one really need to need to read a few old reviews on Empire (yes you can shake your head but these are the reviews). Same as how the reviews praised The Phantom Menace and look how that turn out.

The New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/library/film/061580empire.html

'The Empire Strikes Back' Strikes a Bland Note

"The Empire Strikes Back" is about as personal as a Christmas card from a bank.

The Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/may/22/star-wars-review-empire-strikes-back-archive

Mark Hamill, Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher proving once again just about sufficient for the demands of a not very demanding script

other words, a cast-iron, self-evident hit, but also just a tiny bit boring, perhaps?

The Wall Street Journal

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB111653069458538291

A Dazzling Sequel That Loses Charm Of the Original

The Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/movies/review97/empirestrikesbackmartin.htm

"The Empire Strikes Back" has no plot structure, no character studies let alone character development, no emotional or philosophical point to make. It has no original vision of the future, which is depicted as a pastiche of other junk-culture formulae, such as the western, the costume epic and the Would War II movie.

you don't go to junk movies for your philosophy or religion, do you?

The Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/0/star-wars-episode-v-empire-strikes-back-review-hard-care/ Granted, he didn't see Star Wars at the time.

Star Wars Episode V – The Empire Strikes Back review: 'why is it so hard to care?'

Who are these people? What are they up to? Why is it so hard to care what happens to them?

 

[v0n]

Oh, I agree on TFA, just that TLJ is a page from the same book - both are clearly soft reboot films.

 

[Raymond Lin]

But how that happens is important. There was nothing like the classic "hero finds out what his destiny is", "hero leaves unprepared in order to save his friends", "hero gets knocked down, loses his way", etc. There's nothing to come back from and nothing to come back to (the Republic is gone, the Jedi are gone). Are we just looking at some kids who have a bit of force sensitivity? Is it now just Rey vs Kylo and nothing else going on?

Guess we will find out then won't we? Isn't that the fun part?

 

[Steampunk]

Guess we will find out then won't we? Isn't that the fun part?

I'm not so sure. I think Johnson has broken any story arc. With the problems reported over the Han Solo film, I think that Disney has lost their way. Like DC, they are looking at the success of Marvel's MCU and are trying to replicate it, but failing to understand the source material. They've let directors come in and mess about with everything, even though there is a store of background material to take from.

Marvel has fought hard for their corner and really seem to understand their characters and take from the comics canon that has been build up over decades. Their independence and insistence on doing movies the way they've been going has proven successful. Yet when Disney/Lucasfilm throw out all the previous canon and Kasdan scripts and let and incoming director do his own thing, we get TLJ.