Supplements the debate/discussion thread

tom_e said:
Pretty much, does mean you can get different flavours if that's your thing though.
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I guess, but protein powder is disgusting flavoured or not. At least with unflavoured you're more inclined to just neck it down and get it over with. If you get flavoured, you might convince yourself it doesn't taste that bad, which may make you prolong the drinking of protein powder beyond 30 seconds. If you prolong the drinking of protein powder, you run the serious risk of being seen out in public drinking protein powder, and worse still, from a shaker. Don't be that guy.

arknor said:
not everyone wants to buy 5kg if you were buying 2.5kg anyway its not much more for 4kg using this offer
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4kg is closer to 5kg than it is to 2.5kg.
 
Freefaller said:
More BS the supplement industry use to sell products to idiots ;)
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Exactly. Normal cheap whey is fine for just about everyone. If you've got some severe lactose problem and can't deal with the tiny bit of lactose in whey, then get some purer/isolate or whatever. There really should be only two types of whey.
 
I just hate all the "anabolic" and "extreme mass" and other such labels they put on whey. Whey is just protein with low carb and fat content. That's it. Well, ok they're not all equal, some have a better amino acid profile, and some have less sugars and bulking agents added... however it really is that simple.
 
SMed said:
I guess, but protein powder is disgusting flavoured or not. At least with unflavoured you're more inclined to just neck it down and get it over with. If you get flavoured, you might convince yourself it doesn't taste that bad, which may make you prolong the drinking of protein powder beyond 30 seconds. If you prolong the drinking of protein powder, you run the serious risk of being seen out in public drinking protein powder, and worse still, from a shaker. Don't be that guy.


4kg is closer to 5kg than it is to 2.5kg.
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but your not buying 4kg your buying 3kg and getting 1kg free :confused:
 
supplements work

if you buy good quality stuff and in the right balance = expensive but legal

however they dont work as well as

other forms of performance enhancement drugs that are illegal = cheap pound for pound


simples

most stuff u buy in the uk of the shelf is over hyped and over priced
 
LiE said:
Craac I don't think it's a good idea to big up illegal substances on here.
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not bigging it up stating fact just being honest i didnt recomend anything tbh


added

afaik the taking of is not illegal only the supply for purchase or purchase from an illegal source
 
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arknor said:
but your not buying 4kg your buying 3kg and getting 1kg free :confused:
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If you're taking advantage of the offer, you're buying 4kg of protein that happens to be the same price as both 3kg (1x3kg bags) and a 5kg (1x5kg bag).

3 bags of 1kg (plus 1 free kg) cost £12.99x3=£38.97
1 bag of 5kg costs £39.99


My point being the offer is pointless. You can just buy the 5kg bag and save more money. Unless you have a small 1kg bag fetish.
 
craarc said:
supplements work

if you buy good quality stuff and in the right balance = expensive but legal

however they dont work as well as

other forms of performance enhancement drugs that are illegal = cheap pound for pound


simples

most stuff u buy in the uk of the shelf is over hyped and over priced
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1) Don't bring up prohibited drug talk - we don't want it here frankly. I don't even want to debate their uses - get to your genetic potential and be better than the fakers.
2) Supps do not "work" per se, that's such a dangerous and flawed way of describing supplements. They ADD to your daily diet, boost macros, and potentially help cover shortfalls in diet - however, they do not, on their own "do" anything. By this I mean whey and other such things - not the illegal sorts.

Sure some supplements to help stimulate the body, and help recovery, and they do help make it easier to add to your diet or help a quick fix for recovery when regular nutrition isn't available. And they are useful in a lot of situations. I'm not going to deny or state that I rely on supplementing my diet, I don't but I do use them on occasion.

I accept and it's fact that some supplementations are good for the health and has irrefutable studies, like vit D, fish oils for example. Heck, even creatine when used correctly can help enhance a good diet and a good work out. I can and will also accept that if money is tight, and you need to add that little extra to your diet, a decent set of supplements is a good cost effective way of balancing that diet, I also accept that if you are an athlete on top of your game they can be very beneficial.

I must admit I can't help chuckle at all the bicep monkeys in the changing rooms, all shaking their shakes as some sort of strange post work out voodoo.

However, I will state this again, to get the best out of a supplement you need to have your training and your diet nailed - otherwise you are frankly and literally just ****ing it down the drain.
 
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a supplement is what it is a suppliment and in that sense they do work to a degree. a supplement by its nature is something you add to suppliment not replace.

Sure some supplements to help stimulate the body, and help recovery, and they do help make it easier to add to your diet or help a quick fix for recovery when regular nutrition isn't available. And they are useful in a lot of situations. I'm not going to deny or state that I rely on supplementing my diet, I don't but I do use them on occasion""

then they work ...

i disagree that a good set of suppliments is cost effective tho tbh.. most as i said are over hyped and over priced.. with the use of fancy packaging etc

"However, I will state this again, to get the best out of a supplement you need to have your training and your diet nailed - otherwise you are frankly and literally just ****ing it down the drain. "" agree totaly

thats why most people should not beleive the hype over markated suppliments.

however i stand by my point that legal substances do not work as well or as not as cheap as illegal ones.

that does not mean i recomend either i am making a point

prohibited by ? governing bodies of sport make certain medically used substances prohibited that does not make them illegal ..

and if anyone thinks that professional sportsmen and women are mostly performance enhancing drug free they are living in alice and wonderland territory .

professional sport is rife with substance abuse fact.

my point was not about starting an ethical debate on the pros and cons of so called illegal and legal for want of better words.. lets say legal and prohibited substances

but mearly to state that prohibited substances are far cheaper and more effective.

that can not be denied..
 
Spot on FF, the clue is in the name, supplement. They supplement a good diet and training. No use supplementing a poor diet, you have bigger issues to worry about frankly.

I'm really trying to moving away from supplements in the long run. I want to have an unprocessed raw diet i.e. meats, grains and nuts/vegs.
 
suppliments work mind you i was a lot younger

but they are still over priced and over hyped



may as well add even at my age can still set with 140kg bench easy peasy
full squat not to sure atm prob well over 250 still at least i havent checked recently
dont dead lift back injury stopped me a few years ago
 
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Of course illegal supplements help! Still, a decent diet will help enhance them even more though. ;) Anyway, enough on that subject.

I'm sure the pros do abuse some substances, which I find disgusting, and pure cheating. Sure you still have to train hard, but why cheat or compete against natural people... anyway that's another debate not for this thread.

I agree that most supps are overhyped and expensive... however, you CAN get decent wheys with a good amino acid profile for little money that can help boost your macros if used correctly - however, they should be used to replace or use as an alternative to a decent diet and decent knowledge of your body. However, again, I'm not advocating their use, in fact I'd rather never use them ever, however I can accept that my diet is lacking in certain aspects, and there are some natural herb remedies that do work and can help enhance your life if used correctly and occasionally with knowledge.
 
Freefaller said:
I accept and it's fact that some supplementations are good for the health and has irrefutable studies, like vit D, fish oils for example.
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Good stuff FF. I just want to chime in though, the above statement is a little too strong. I can assure you, the supposed benefits of Vit D and fish oils is not irrefutable. I mentioned fish oils in particular in the gym rats thread as I'm seeing a lot of the stuff being mentioned here. I'll try to make a more substantial post/thread on some of this stuff at some point, but basically with fish oils the studies/science go something like this.

1) it was observed people eating fish are 'healthier'
2) fish have n-3 oils
3) some experiments show it's at least plausible that n-3s may be health promoting
4) a few relatively short term (less than 3-5 years) trials show positive outcomes supplementing fish oils.

It's at this point that the fish oil craze hits big time. Believe me, I went for it too. I think I still have some bottles of myprotein fish oil somewhere because they were the cheapest.

Then the paleo diet people went bat **** crazy with megadosing this stuff such that they're popping 10-30 capsules a day. Thankfully/hopefully this died down.

But now we're sort of here:
5) Some of the longer term trials (5-10 years) are muddying up the waters. Some have shown some potentially serious side-effects with long term fish oil supplementation, and I don't mean megadoses. In some trials (I'll have to dig them out) the fish oil group had a higher rate of mortality.

As for the Vit D group, last time I checked, most of the studies were retrospective observational studies, not prospective double-blind placebo controlled trials. Last year, a few Vit D studies with regards to CV health showed no positive outcomes at all. I don't know if there have been any recent trials published, but I know there are many many being run as we speak. These things take time. Saying that, I take Vit D.
 
Again, there are just as many studies that show the polar opposites. The fact is we just don't eat enough oily fish in this country. If I lived back in the Med, I'd probably never supplement ever, and wouldn't need any. However, in my work and life, I know I'm short of these 2 items. Sure I could buy more fish, but it's just not that easy and it's bloody expensive for some reason... whereas in the Med you can buy fish cheaper than you can buy a chocolate bar over here. You don't need vit D either as there's plenty of sunshine!

I never said about megadosing, just hitting a decent RDA amount (but not a government led number, one by professional studies. :)). I agree hyperdosing is just daft. :)
 
current govt and nhs advice is that we lack in vit d since it was stopped being added to our diet 10 or so years agao ( i cant rememebr exactly when to late at night after a hard day at work) but since it was not used to fortify or suppliment in this country we have seen an alarming increase in the cases of ricketts in the uk.
 
Freefaller said:
Again, there are just as many studies that show the polar opposites. The fact is we just don't eat enough oily fish in this country. If I lived back in the Med, I'd probably never supplement ever, and wouldn't need any. However, in my work and life, I know I'm short of these 2 items. Sure I could buy more fish, but it's just not that easy and it's bloody expensive for some reason... whereas in the Med you can buy fish cheaper than you can buy a chocolate bar over here. You don't need vit D either as there's plenty of sunshine!

I never said about megadosing, just hitting a decent RDA amount (but not a government led number, one by professional studies. :)). I agree hyperdosing is just daft. :)
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Yeah, forgot to reiterate the point I made in the other thread: real whole food trumps these things dramatically.

The scientific consensus is that where we live we probably do not get enough sunlight to produce optimal levels of vitamin D.
And the scientific consensus is that we do not eat enough fresh oily fish.

But it does not follow that the consensus is to necessarily supplement these things. There's barely a consensus at all as to what is best to do about these problems, save moving to the Med (what I wouldn't give...).

My main point in replying was not necessarily to play the contrarian, but to just to say the science is not irrefutable by any means on these subjects.
 
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