Supplements the debate/discussion thread
- Thread starter Freefaller
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Yes, lots of people take fast acting carbs with protein post-workout with the idea that there will be a spike of insulin which will hopefully aid protein uptake and greater protein synthesis. I have a few of my own thoughts on this, but that's not what I'm getting at.
You said specifically, "Get that protein direct to your muscles to replace your glycogen stores." That is incorrect as protein will not replace your glycogen stores, carbohydrates replace your glycogen stores. You take protein to provide amino acids for protein synthesis in the muscles, carbohydrates to replenish glycogen in the muscles and liver.
You said specifically, "Get that protein direct to your muscles to replace your glycogen stores." That is incorrect as protein will not replace your glycogen stores, carbohydrates replace your glycogen stores. You take protein to provide amino acids for protein synthesis in the muscles, carbohydrates to replenish glycogen in the muscles and liver.
Yes, that's about right. I just replied to the others before seeing this post.
Fair game
Nice to know a bit of the science behind it as such
I knew what you meant chap
Really? Never seen it in a chemists before, its cheap online - but not that cheap!
I know there's a little science, and a lot of dogma, regarding the fast carbs+protein post-workout, but I just want to say there are some other ideas regarding nutrient timing proximate to training.
What I personally do is have a protein shake with carbs about 30-60 minutes pre-workout. The idea behind doing this immediately post-workout with a fast carb is that you get the fastest most rapid uptake of amino acids into the blood and into your muscles. Well, it can be 30-60 minutes before most people take their shake post-workout and then another 20-30 minutes more (at least) before you digest this and it starts absorbing. That's a fair amount of time your muscles are without optimal amino acid supply.
If you take your shake pre-workout, you'll have already digested and absorbed the protein and carbs and they'll be... all up in yo' bloodstream. You'll have your amino acid supply just when the muscles need it. This is the sort of logic people use to justify sipping BCAA cat **** in their peri-workout drink. But have a whey shake before will pretty much do the same thing and be much cheaper. Whey has a tonne of BCAAs remember, and if you're consuming enough protein in your diet, you can rest assured you're getting optimal BCAAs already and there is a maximum effective dose. I can't really deal with having the shake during training as I don't like having lots of liquid sitting in me when lifting heavy.
The rate of glycogen replenishment is not that important unless you're going to be training again very quickly. If you're taking a day of rest between workouts, you're glycogen stores will be plenty full by the time you're ready for your next workout.
As far as the insulin spike, yes insulin is anabolic. But also protein has a profound effect on insulin production, and I don't think most people realise this. Protein can stimulate insulin to almost the same degree as carbs. But either way, insulin at normal physiological concentrations isn't that big of a deal. Insulin becomes truly 'anabolic' at supraphysiological concentrations seen only really when taking exogenous insulin. That's not to say it isn't doing anything obviously.
Nutrient timing is complex and there really isn't a strong scientific consensus. There are conflicting studies that can support either case. From what I've read though, there does seem to be a little more weight falling on the side a pre-workout protein+carb shake, followed by a big normal meal post workout. Hell, you could even do a pre- and post-workout shake.
But tbh, nutrient timing doesn't even come close in importance as overall diet and training. Diet (macros etc), training and sleep (recover) combined could easily account for 95% of the importance, or more. Followed by 5% importance in nutrient timing and (legal) supplements.
What I personally do is have a protein shake with carbs about 30-60 minutes pre-workout. The idea behind doing this immediately post-workout with a fast carb is that you get the fastest most rapid uptake of amino acids into the blood and into your muscles. Well, it can be 30-60 minutes before most people take their shake post-workout and then another 20-30 minutes more (at least) before you digest this and it starts absorbing. That's a fair amount of time your muscles are without optimal amino acid supply.
If you take your shake pre-workout, you'll have already digested and absorbed the protein and carbs and they'll be... all up in yo' bloodstream. You'll have your amino acid supply just when the muscles need it. This is the sort of logic people use to justify sipping BCAA cat **** in their peri-workout drink. But have a whey shake before will pretty much do the same thing and be much cheaper. Whey has a tonne of BCAAs remember, and if you're consuming enough protein in your diet, you can rest assured you're getting optimal BCAAs already and there is a maximum effective dose. I can't really deal with having the shake during training as I don't like having lots of liquid sitting in me when lifting heavy.
The rate of glycogen replenishment is not that important unless you're going to be training again very quickly. If you're taking a day of rest between workouts, you're glycogen stores will be plenty full by the time you're ready for your next workout.
As far as the insulin spike, yes insulin is anabolic. But also protein has a profound effect on insulin production, and I don't think most people realise this. Protein can stimulate insulin to almost the same degree as carbs. But either way, insulin at normal physiological concentrations isn't that big of a deal. Insulin becomes truly 'anabolic' at supraphysiological concentrations seen only really when taking exogenous insulin. That's not to say it isn't doing anything obviously.
Nutrient timing is complex and there really isn't a strong scientific consensus. There are conflicting studies that can support either case. From what I've read though, there does seem to be a little more weight falling on the side a pre-workout protein+carb shake, followed by a big normal meal post workout. Hell, you could even do a pre- and post-workout shake.
But tbh, nutrient timing doesn't even come close in importance as overall diet and training. Diet (macros etc), training and sleep (recover) combined could easily account for 95% of the importance, or more. Followed by 5% importance in nutrient timing and (legal) supplements.
if its not visible ask as chemists can always order in
and they dont expect you to pay anything upfrontdextrose = glucose btw they are the exact same thing.
i guess dextrose is an american word or something
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May as well have it all before...
Then again having it before could give your body what it needs during the workout, then after it could be used to help replenish so to speak.
Who knows!
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SMed might, hence why I'm asking him
LOL
I've never bothered really with mixed recovery shakes like this. It's got good stuff in it, but I see it as a waste of money. I've not seen any compelling evidence to suggest there's a significant benefit to fancy carbs like waxy maize starch. You find the odd little study (funded by a supp company usually) that shows some statistically significant, but practically insignificant, benefit in some contrived scenario that hardly anyone will be able to replicate. *yawn* Nothing to get excited about. But then you'll find more rigorous studies or reviews that put it all into context and there's really no benefit over placebo and/or sufficient/optimal normal food intake.
It does offer convenience I suppose, but for me the price isn't justified. Apart from that, it's not a bad supp.
But I've just ranted about something you didn't ask about.
I don't think there will be much in it either way to be honest. I'd be more inclined to have the whole thing pre-workout, but I don't really think it's going to be a big deal. In activities where the mental aspect is important in performance, even a placebo effect may be useful. Not that you're fooling yourself or anything, but I mean whatever makes you feel more comfortable. I feel more comfortable going in fully fed making sure I've got everything for the actual training session - because that's the important part for me. Then I just eat a lot, a lot, of food afterwards.Well I tend to eat as soon as I get in from the gym, so maybe having it pre- will work out for me. I'll give it a go tonight.
I hear what you're saying about the product as a whole, but I think the convenience is what appeals to me, and I can justify the cost. I'd rather not have hundreds of tubs lying around the house and measure out all the doseages. One bag, two scoops, DONE.
I hear what you're saying about the product as a whole, but I think the convenience is what appeals to me, and I can justify the cost. I'd rather not have hundreds of tubs lying around the house and measure out all the doseages. One bag, two scoops, DONE.
I'm looking into this currently: http://articles.elitefts.com/nutrition/carb-back-loading/
Seems to be popular in the powerlifting and strongman communities.
Seems to be popular in the powerlifting and strongman communities.
