Suzuka Circuit -JAPANESE Grand Prix 2009 - Race 15/17

But didn't Hamilton have a car that wasn't how he wanted and look how badly he struggled. I thought he was almost going to break down in tears crying to the post race cameras when he was finishing 14th/15th etc.

Exactly, Hamilton never set the world alight even against Kova when the car was not working.

Both Jenson and Rubens fuel loads in qfy on many occasions since silverstone have been incredibly low compared to the cars around them. Some times that Brawn has been way off the pace, usually in the races Red Bull have been awesome.

The problem is getting caught behind those Kers cars which has ruined so many peoples races this year. When there is usually only one or two over taking points on each track it's easy to get stuck and have the Kers car keep you there until the stops.

Jenson had podium pace on sunday when you actually have to look after the rears and be consistent. The trouble is the amount of time he keeps losing behind slower cars due to qfy. He's done some excellent over takes this year but there is only so many cars you can sit behind on a stint and not destroy the tyres.

I wish they would just make a concrete ruling on Kers either way. Everyone has to use it or no one.
 
I wish they would just make a concrete ruling on Kers either way. Everyone has to use it or no one.

Get rid of it out of those 2 options.
With everyone having it I still think we will end up with no-one overtaking..... Unless there was the rare treat of a track with 2 great overtaking spots, and one car using KERS on one straight and not on the other, then the other way around for the other driver for them to keep swapping places! :p
 
But didn't Hamilton have a car that wasn't how he wanted and look how badly he struggled. I thought he was almost going to break down in tears crying to the post race cameras when he was finishing 14th/15th etc.

During the times when the McLaren car was terrible, it was a real dog of a car. No matter who drove it, it was slow. This was shown by the fact that Heikki was struggling in it, too. Hamilton did the best possible job that any driver could've in that car.

You can't take anything away from a driver if they are slow in a slow car. However, when your team-mate is faster in the same car (as Barrichello has been since Silverstone), you can absolutely blame the slower driver.

Hamilton has never been consistently slower or been outscored by his team mate, at any stage during the last 3 seasons. The same cannot be said about Button (last year Barrichello outscored Button and in the 2nd half of this season, Barrichello has yet again outscored Button).

When Button outscores his team-mate consistently (like Hamilton and Alonso have and are doing), then Button will have strong case of being ranked alongside Alonso and Hamilton. Until then ...
 
When Button outscores his team-mate consistently (like Hamilton and Alonso have and are doing), then Button will have strong case of being ranked alongside Alonso and Hamilton. Until then ...

Surely, that argument depends on who the other driver is??

Barrichello is hardly a Piquet, or Grosjean? He is the most experienced F1 driver ever (iirc? certainly currently racing) a double championship runner up to boot.

What about when Alonso and Hamilton were racing each other in the same team, who dominated who?
 
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Surely, that argument depends on who the other driver is??

Barrichello is hardly a Piquet, or Grosjean? He is the most experienced F1 driver ever (iirc? certainly currently racing) a double championship runner up to boot.

What about when Alonso and Hamilton were racing each other in the same team, who dominated who?

stole the words right out of my mouth.
 
You can't take anything away from a driver if they are slow in a slow car. However, when your team-mate is faster in the same car (as Barrichello has been since Silverstone), you can absolutely blame the slower driver


Maybe get your facts right first before slating someone - Button was faster than Rubens in Singapore and Suzuka and equally as fast in Italy (compare starting grid to finishing results and Jenson absolutely slaughtered Rubens in the last two races, and could have possibly beaten him in Imola if allowed to but rightfully Brawn didnt want to risk losing the 1 - 2)

(and there where several others where they where roughly equal, like Silverstone, Hungary and Germany - and only Valencia where Rubens was a lot quicker than JB)
 
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Barrichello is hardly a Piquet, or Grosjean? He is the most experienced F1 driver ever (iirc? certainly currently racing) a double championship runner up to boot.

Barrichello has always been the better end of midfield, and is now in his twlight years in formula one. That Button has done better than him this season shows he's a talented driver, but it doesn't show he's a great one.
 
Barrichello has always been the better end of midfield, and is now in his twlight years in formula one. That Button has done better than him this season shows he's a talented driver, but it doesn't show he's a great one.

Doesnt mean he should be written off either - with the (hopefully) hardest Championship under his belt next year, he could become even better (with a decent car as well of course)
 
The whole "who is better than who" arguments really bother me.

At the end of a season, one person is champion, because they won more points than anyone else in the season. Regardless of circumstance, they DESERVED it. F1 is more than just driving on the day.

The drivers try to land drives for teams they think will provide them a good car, or a leg up to a top team. They work on the development of the car at the start, and during the season. They keep themselves super-fit, and do whatever they can to win that championship.

When the season is over, one person did this all better than the other guys. So he wins deservedly.
 
^^ Agreed.

I also find it amusing when people compare todays drivers with the F1 drivers of days long gone by.

These days it seems to be more of a Driver+Car 60percent.. Team strategy 40percent as to who wins a race.

I'm sure if Button pushed his car any harder he'd be doing a Grojean every other lap.
 
Barrichello has always been the better end of midfield

Um....7 wins, 55 podiums and 412 points during his six season tenure at Ferrari (those totals including Ferrari's lousy '05 campaign) suggests he could be rated higher than having "always been the better end of midfield". He was a front-runner at Ferrari, is once again a front-runner at Brawn, and the fact that Button has generally outperformed or equalled him for most of this season should be an indication that Button is indeed pretty bloody good.

I suspect he'll fall into the same trap that Massa would have if he'd won the title in '08 though - people still won't see him as one of the best drivers, even if he wins the top prize.
 
Surely, that argument depends on who the other driver is??

Barrichello is hardly a Piquet, or Grosjean? He is the most experienced F1 driver ever (iirc? certainly currently racing) a double championship runner up to boot.

What about when Alonso and Hamilton were racing each other in the same team, who dominated who?

Not only that but Kova knows he's only there to service the needs of Hamilton. Massa too will find out he's at ferrari next year to help massage Alonso. The one time Alonso never had a team mate who wasn't there to help him he had a crying fit and stomped off.

Its a whole different battle when two drivers actually have to fight each other for track position, the engineers time and getting the car designed to your liking rather than your team mates.

I'm not a big rubens fan, I'm not a fan of any top rated driver that sells his soul to be a contractual no 2 but he's still better than any team mate alonso would dare pair himself with and certainly better than Kova.
 
Not only that but Kova knows he's only there to service the needs of Hamilton. ...
Surely McLaren would like to win the Constructors' Championship as well as would almost any other manufacturer :confused:

This is inevitably going to require the drivers and engineers to pool information for the greater good of the team - I realise that this may not have been the case with Ferrari & Schumacher and may not with Alonso.
 
Surely McLaren would like to win the Constructors' Championship as well as would almost any other manufacturer :confused:

This is inevitably going to require the drivers and engineers to pool information for the greater good of the team - I realise that this may not have been the case with Ferrari & Schumacher and may not with Alonso.

Hasnt been at some weekends at Brawn this year according to Ross Brawn himself (and it just so happend to be said at the last two or three races, which kind of indicates its Jock clear / Rubens who was being a little protective of data as at that point he was finding it easier to set up the car for the given situation)
 
Um....7 wins, 55 podiums and 412 points during his six season tenure at Ferrari (those totals including Ferrari's lousy '05 campaign) suggests he could be rated higher than having "always been the better end of midfield". He was a front-runner at Ferrari, is once again a front-runner at Brawn, and the fact that Button has generally outperformed or equalled him for most of this season should be an indication that Button is indeed pretty bloody good.

I suspect he'll fall into the same trap that Massa would have if he'd won the title in '08 though - people still won't see him as one of the best drivers, even if he wins the top prize.

or it could be an indication that when barrichello was in his prime he would have easily beat button :p
 
They employ kova to score as many points as possible without beating Hamilton. Hence why hamilton gets everything first and the car will be developed to suit hamilton. Kova is a rear gunner employed to pick up extra points when hamilton doesn't.

Hamiltons father would kick up a stink again if they ever try to sign someone as an equal to give his son a hard time.
 
They employ kova to score as many points as possible without beating Hamilton. Hence why hamilton gets everything first and the car will be developed to suit hamilton. Kova is a rear gunner employed to pick up extra points when hamilton doesn't.

Hamiltons father would kick up a stink again if they ever try to sign someone as an equal to give his son a hard time.

Don't agree with this... and what about Kimi going to McLaren for 2010?
 
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