*** The 2012 Gym Rats Thread ***

[Freefaller]

Awesome squatting. Puts mine to shame.

 

[Skillmister]

Awesome squatting. Puts mine to shame.

Can't wait till saturday to see your definition of small and weak! Then cry as you rep out my max

 

[DiCe!]

Not quite gym rats but.

Back to football tonight, first real taster of just how much ive lost over the festive period.
Looking for 60 minutes solid running, after a half hour warm up with my uni mate walking me through that. Then off to the gym tomorrow morning for an arms session.

That hurt much more than i thought it would.

Was running on empty for 40 minutes, probably because I did a much much longer warm up then I am used to, Also went for it a bit to hard to early.

Really annoyed Ive lost so much from where I was just before christmas.
Not only that my touch was appalling, pffffft

Onwards and upwards.

 

[Skillmister]

Interesting...

Originally Posted by Skillmister

do you agree that intermittent fasting can help keep body fat gain minimal or even lower it while bulking?

Originally Posted by str8flexed (layne norton)

that's a loaded question. in general meal frequency does not affect bodyfat gain or loss so i would say no, but it definitely wouldn't hamper it either if you prefer it. But it would not be optimal for maximal protein anabolism based on my research whereas I think 4-5 protein doses throughout the day are superior to 1-2 as i believe is suggested by IF.

Obviously IF doesn't actually mean 1-2 protein doses as i have replied, waiting for an answer, but that's interesting about the more protein doses being beneficial. That's almost 'brosciencey'

 

[icecold]

Nice squatting gents, and congrats on your PB Lie now your bench:squat ratio is a little less ****ed

First day of PHAT:

Day 1: Upper Power
BOR 3x5 110
Pull ups 2x6 20
Cable row 2x10 130
Flat DB press 3x5 47.5
CGBP 2x8 95
DB shoulder press 3x8 27.5
EZ curls 3x8 15
Skull crushers 3x8 15

Not in that order. BORs were rock solid (no legs or chicken necking), had my brother watching and he's as much of a barsterward as me when it comes to form. Did two sets with 50kg on flat DB press then dropped it to 47.5kg because I was quite unstable, which is interesting considering I've done 45kgx10 on an incline. Tried something new on seated DB press, kept ALL of my back against the back rest with my chin tucked. My form isn't massively different from this normally, but this felt weird in my shoulders (in a good way). Pretty interesting day for shoulder mobility/stability. Everything else was pretty standard.

Also played around with some vertical jumps and some broad jumps. No knee pain and only slightly limited in my ankle, big improvement! Vert is going to get big too.

 

[MoNkeE]

Just means that's what he's been told in the past the thing with IF is that you're essentially training in a fasted state which means you'll burn thru the fat reserves for fuel. You'll then eat your allocated amounts of kcals (be it maintenance or over) in 1 or 2 sessions afterwards when your body isn't craving the fuel, so the theory being its then utilised by your repairing muscles rather than stored for later.

So to summarise, yes I can see where he's coming from but I don't think it's necessarily scientifically proven, where as lean gains has many studies supporting what he claims. However I k ow you're thinking of having two "meals" (albeit small ones) before training during your IF experiment. In my opinion, this ideal, as IF really caters for those training on an absolute fasted state (supported with an I take of BCAAs prior to training).

Give it a ta. It might work, it might not. You're planning n bulking so the worst that will happen is that you'll..... Get bigger

Edit: apologies for my drunken ramblings

 

[Skillmister]

Well the thing is IF is an 8 hour feeding period which is still plenty of time to get in 4-5 different protein consumptions (almost exactly what i wrote in my reply to him) , 2-3 meals and 2-3 shakes, so in that respect it could be exactly the same especially if meal frequency as a whole doesn't change anything. It's just something i hadn't really heard about before.

As for scientifically proven, if layne norton says something is in his research i have a good mind to believe him

 

[Mansize_tissue]

Obviously IF doesn't actually mean 1-2 protein doses as i have replied, waiting for an answer, but that's interesting about the more protein doses being beneficial. That's almost 'brosciencey'

I've bulked using IF for over a year, maybe 2 now I can't remember. And in the last 3 months I've cut 3/4st on it while still increasing in strength.

I see where Norton is coming from but his angle is completely irrelevant. 2 protein doses aren't 2 injections of protein that come and go. If I have a meal at 1pm and again at 9pm, my body will be benefiting from those meals throughout the whole day. I could split these into 5 doses spread evenly throughout the day, but it isn't going to effect the rate at which my muscles receive the fuel, at least not to an extent that amateurs such as ourselves should worry about it.

Out of interest, have you read his article on cutting? He seems to recommend a ridiculous amount of carbs, which is where I begin to question his advice. No diet should be structured like that, 'least not a cutting diet! I have to admit that people certainly have had success with such diets, but it isn't the healthiest way to go about it, and probably not the most efficient either.

 

[icecold]

Damnit Layne, I liked you before...

Keep us posted Skillmister. Maybe he's talking about something more complicated.

 

[MoNkeE]

As for scientifically proven, if layne norton says something is in his research i have a good mind to believe him

Why? What sources has he linked to that disprove the benefits of IF? Conversely, what sources has Martin Berkhan linked to that support his claims? Layne's obviously been using his techniques for years, he's probably very set in his ways and will sooner believe what he's been taught rather than new studies.

With regards to meal frequencies, he's obviously suggesting the whole theory that your body can only process x amount of protein in one sitting, yes you can split your two courses between 4-5 sittings but the timing between them will be quite short, where as he's suggesting eating 4-5 sittings through a 16hr period rather than IF's 8 - quite a difference.

 

[Skillmister]

Haven't seen his cutting diet, link please?

I agree, that is exactly why it seems odd to me, although i really don't know much about the science of it all. Would be nice to hear FFs opinion.
Obviously he(layne) should know what he's talking about. Assuming he is actually natural, and i have no reason to believe he isn't, his conditioning etc is absolutely astounding. Not to mention a Phd in nutritional sciences iirc.

Heres the followup answer
me

I haven't tried it yet so no preference, just seen a couple of guys say they had good results from it, along with the stuff martin berkhan has written. IF isn't necessarily 1-2 protein doses, more just that they are closer together. Can still eat over a period of ~8 hours which should easily be enough time for 4-5 consumptions. Could you link to any posts about that research would be interesting to read?

layne

it's hard to explain but actually this would be counterproductive in my opinion based on what i know about protein metabolism and the data from my thesis research. a recent study showed that pulsing protein every 4 hours was more anabolic than feeding a continuous dose over the same period of time. so you need to give enough time for the system to 'reset' but at the same time, just eating a bunch in a certain time frame is not enough to make up for lack of protein at the other say 16 hours of the day.

So he's talking about the immediate effect the protein has on the body, i assume insulin etc(i really have no idea) and multiple repetitions of this effect throughout the day being beneficial?

 

[MoNkeE]

Haven't seen his cutting diet, link please?

I agree, that is exactly why it seems odd to me, although i really don't know much about the science of it all. Would be nice to hear FFs opinion.

whilst FF is very knowledgable with nutrition and lifting in general, don't always value his opinion over other's. Hopefully FF realises I mean no disrespect in that, rather I'm suggesting FF hasn't (to my knowledge) ever tried IF, where as people like Mansize Tissue and BennyC have,and they've posted fantastic results from it. actions speak louder than words an' all that.

 

[MoNkeE]

so he's talking about the immediate effect the protein has on the body, i assume insulin etc(i really have no idea) and multiple repetitions of this effect throughout the day being beneficial?

which has been disproved as bro science on lean gains. Not saying that I believe everything lean gains says, but don't go believing everything Layne says either just because they're the spokesperson of a particular life style

 

[Skillmister]

I'm not meaning it like that It's just FF knows way more about the science of the body and bodybuilding than me and i need it explained to me in simple terms I'm not even trying to disprove either method just wondering why 2 very 'well established' bodybuilders have such different views. Or maybe they aren't that different and i'm missing the point slightly.

Infact as you can see in my quote, when i said 'seen some guys have good results' they were exactly the people i were meaning and are exactly why i am asking these questions

Don't worry. I'm not the type of person to take whatever my idols say as truth, completely the opposite in that i take everything anyone says with a pinch of salt (except icecold on mobility )

 

[Mansize_tissue]

His reply gives the impression he's assuming the body is in a catabolic state if it hasn't received a fresh protein delivery recently. Hasn't there been explicit evidence that counters this? I haven't got anything on hand to cite, but I think this is basically the foundation of why IF it works. Or rather, why it doesn't not work!

Here's the link to his cutting article.

He recommends 225g of carbohydrates on training days. Fair enough carb intake should be higher here to spare protein breakdown as it's obviously needed in your muscles. But I don't even consume this amount when I'm bulking!

He also talks a lot on re-feeding; another idea I'm not really in agreement with, but to be honest I haven't conducted much research into this area and it's something I'm planning on doing soon.

 

[Skillmister]

Don't know, i'm hoping he will link to some research after i linked him to this.

I'm on over 300g carbs in my bulking diet, when i was working it out for cutting the other day it was ~170g based on protein/fat targets. So 225 doesn't seem that bad considering he probably has 20lbs more lbm than me.

Re-feeding is mentions on lean gains quite a bit aswell

5. Carb refeeds. Refeeding on high carb meals, with a low fat content, will boost leptin and kick up hormonal output and metabolic rate a notch. It may sound counter intuitive for those not familiar with this concept, but it may in fact be just what you need to get past a fat loss plateau, or to see fat loss in stubborn areas. Much can be written about this, but Mark Sisson recently wrote an easy layman's guide to carb refeeds that you might want to check out if you need a quick summary of the benefits.

For a more thorough explanation of refeeds and leptin, I urge you to check out Lyle McDonald's excellent series on body weight regulation. There's plenty more on this topic on Lyle's site; just do a search for "refeeds", or "refeeding", and you'll be busy for hours.

If you follow my approach, as I've laid out in the Leangains Guide, you will refeed after every weight training-session.

 

[MoNkeE]

Fair one Chris, impartiality is very important but you've got that sorted

Mansize, is it that the catabolic state doesn't exist (in this context) or that leangains works around this by BCAA consumption?

 

[icecold]

The effect he's talking about could be related to leucine pulsing. It was a long time ago now, but I think I saw some research about that. iirc the take home point was that adding 2g of leucine to meals increased protein synthesis... can't remember well enough to recall how this fits in with newer research though.

 

[Mansize_tissue]

I *think*, and don't quote me on this as I haven't thoroughly read through Martin's website since I started IF, but the body just doesn't enter a catabolic state as 'frivolously' as people once thought. I.E. 'starvation mode' doesn't kick in and cause muscle breakdown if you've gone without sustenance for more than 2 hours.

BCAA consumption is just required if you're training fasted to prevent your muscles breaking down into glucose and being used for fuel, again AFAIK. It's been a while since I've brushed up on Martin Berkhan's concepts of IF (though I have since read the works of others on the matter), but I certainly remember the core ideas being solid at the time.

Regarding refeeds, what Martin mentions at the bottom of that quote Skillmister reflects my view on leptin. Essentially my massive post workout, 1200cal meal is my refeed.

 

[Skillmister]

After all this though we have to go back to what Monkee said above, 'actions speak louder than words' and lets be honest, this speaks pretty ****ing loud!