*** The 2013 Gym Rats Thread ***

Man of Honour
Joined
3 Apr 2003
Posts
15,627
Location
Cambridge
This is well accepted and maintained throughout bodybuilding circles, but I actually wonder how much truth there is in there. No doubt compounds are the best exercises; shifting lots of weight, building on function strength, using all kiiiiinds of stabilisers and easy to maintain consistent form.

However, the old theory for using compounds is that they release more growth hormone in the body than isolation; this is the part I'm skeptical of! I believe the amount will be so negligible that it would offer no real world benefit.

Building on this, I get fed up of hearing people say "the body will only grow in proportion, so if you don't train legs, you won't get big". This is the biggest load of bull I've ever heard, yet is still WIDELY passed around as being a truth. And that if you train legs hard, you'll release more growth hormone which will aid the rest of your workouts; again my above point saying that I think it's negligible makes me think this is a load of testicles also.

/trained legs yesterday and still regret it.

I thought I'd read somewhere recently that the whole thing regarding GH response to heavy compounds had been debunked... couldn't tell you where I read that though... i might even have imaginied it! :)

There is little evidence examining the relationship of isolation/compound exercises to the amount of test generated. What there IS plenty of is research (and evidence) supporting 'significant increases' in test, GH, IGF arising from compound exercises (the ones I've read include squat, bench, leg press).

Now there are two kickers here:

Hormone response to different exercises:
The only study I've found that analyses different exercise types and resulting hormonal responses compare bilateral to unilateral (i.e. regular leg press to single leg press... or two limbs vs. one) which shows that both stimulated the same level of test despite the total work done via unilateral exercise being lower (caveat: I don't know if they did both legs individually as part of the investigation).

This may suggest that test may reach a certain level beyond which it doesn't increase, irrespective of the exercise performed. There could be a couple of factors to this:

1) A hard bicep workout is just as test-worthy as a hard leg workout;
2) The study was rubbish and they did perform unilateral exercises on both legs;
3) A by-product of exercise stimulates the test, meaning the whole thing is not rate-limited (i.e. test will only go to a certain level).
4) It's not worth testing this for isolation because they don't produce enough test.

Hormone response during rest periods:
Another study looked at the test:cortisol ratio induced through different rest periods (30, 60, 90, 120) and found that 120s was a much higher (better) ratio than 30s (with no real difference between 60 and 90s). The issue here being cortisol's action as a catabolic. This suggests that - unbelievably - the lifter would get knackered faster and feel worse doing short rests, but that this sort of exercise is potentially more damaging (and, therefore, better for hypertrophyz?) than longer rest periods. There was also a comparative study showing that longer rest periods result in bigger strength gains over time, but that's another matter.

So what?
TL;DR

1) If a lifter is using PEDs, the whole discussion on compoounds and hormones is meaningless.
2) There is no quantitative comparative evidence to indicate that test is better from compounds as opposed to isolation exercises.
3) Shorter rest periods will limit your rest gainz;
4) Nobody seems to bother testing hormone response to isolation exercises. Whatever that means. My guess is it's related to exercise intensity and resulting bi-products/stimulation/whatever.

Now... does the debate on hormone levels matter to the unassisted lifter? More test is no doubt better than less, but is the difference between compound vs. isolation significant enough to adapt a routine around it for maximal gainz? No data available.

So... I'd suggest:

1) Hypertrophy: lower rest periods;
2) Strength: longer rest periods;

;)
 
Soldato
Joined
18 Dec 2004
Posts
9,838
Location
NE England
Yes, you definitely strike me as the type not to simple accept the tried and tested methods, but to prove their efficiency. That's why I read your spoilered text, and I've been getting very interested in reading as many articles as I can.

I've definitely enjoyed reading everything that's been posted recently, both on the forums and in the FaceBook group. Haven't got to reading your Mister Spine article (so much hyperbole in T-Nation), but FreeFaller's upper:lower trap article and ice's arch collapsed feet relating to lumbar pain articles were fantastic!
 
Associate
Joined
22 Nov 2005
Posts
1,331
I've definitely enjoyed reading everything that's been posted recently, both on the forums and in the FaceBook group. Haven't got to reading your Mister Spine article (so much hyperbole in T-Nation), but FreeFaller's upper:lower trap article and ice's arch collapsed feet relating to lumbar pain articles were fantastic!

where do i find the articles on FB?
i just look at the T&A!
 
Man of Honour
Joined
6 Apr 2007
Posts
7,633
Not sure I follow. Running a marathon is knackering but won't make you grow. I don't think systemic fatigue (if thats what you mean by knackering) elicits growth.

Ignore me if I've misterunderstood what you mean.

There is little evidence examining the relationship of isolation/compound exercises to the amount of test generated. What there IS plenty of is research (and evidence) supporting 'significant increases' in test, GH, IGF arising from compound exercises (the ones I've read include squat, bench, leg press).

Now there are two kickers here:

Hormone response to different exercises:
The only study I've found that analyses different exercise types and resulting hormonal responses compare bilateral to unilateral (i.e. regular leg press to single leg press... or two limbs vs. one) which shows that both stimulated the same level of test despite the total work done via unilateral exercise being lower (caveat: I don't know if they did both legs individually as part of the investigation).

This may suggest that test may reach a certain level beyond which it doesn't increase, irrespective of the exercise performed. There could be a couple of factors to this:

1) A hard bicep workout is just as test-worthy as a hard leg workout;
2) The study was rubbish and they did perform unilateral exercises on both legs;
3) A by-product of exercise stimulates the test, meaning the whole thing is not rate-limited (i.e. test will only go to a certain level).
4) It's not worth testing this for isolation because they don't produce enough test.

Hormone response during rest periods:
Another study looked at the test:cortisol ratio induced through different rest periods (30, 60, 90, 120) and found that 120s was a much higher (better) ratio than 30s (with no real difference between 60 and 90s). The issue here being cortisol's action as a catabolic. This suggests that - unbelievably - the lifter would get knackered faster and feel worse doing short rests, but that this sort of exercise is potentially more damaging (and, therefore, better for hypertrophyz?) than longer rest periods. There was also a comparative study showing that longer rest periods result in bigger strength gains over time, but that's another matter.

So what?
TL;DR

1) If a lifter is using PEDs, the whole discussion on compoounds and hormones is meaningless.
2) There is no quantitative comparative evidence to indicate that test is better from compounds as opposed to isolation exercises.
3) Shorter rest periods will limit your rest gainz;
4) Nobody seems to bother testing hormone response to isolation exercises. Whatever that means. My guess is it's related to exercise intensity and resulting bi-products/stimulation/whatever.

Now... does the debate on hormone levels matter to the unassisted lifter? More test is no doubt better than less, but is the difference between compound vs. isolation significant enough to adapt a routine around it for maximal gainz? No data available.

So... I'd suggest:

1) Hypertrophy: lower rest periods;
2) Strength: longer rest periods;

;)
Yes, I like both of these.

And Monkee too, he's always handsome.
 
Thug
Soldato
Joined
4 Jan 2013
Posts
3,783
Couple of quick questions (probably going to be shot down in flames but hey).

Are eggs a decent source of protein? Is there a safe limit you can eat? They seem to tick all the boxes and would suit my hectic but simple lifestyle. Any issues to watch out for?

Training: is it dangerous/counterproductive/stupid to focus on particular areas when starting out training (more focused on upper body at the moment, with a particular focus on increasing arm size (and strength) and promoting a more V shaped body over my current universal proportions (think pencil).

Thanks.
 
Associate
Joined
17 Mar 2004
Posts
1,562
Has anyone come across AllPro's routine?

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=147447933

Seems to have a huge following on the BB forums and from a quick read it seems OK - mainly compound lifts, built in de-loading so you don't stall too quick etc.

I'm coming back after a few months off and looking for a new routine, don't want to go down the route of SS / SL and I think a cycle of HST would be pointless as I wouldn't be lifting a great deal weight wise.

Thoughts?

Any opinions on this routine? Or something else to get stuck in to?

ETA: it's basically this 3x a week:

Squats
Bench Presses
Bent-Over Rows
Overhead Barbell Presses
Stiff-Legged Deadlifts
Barbell Curls
Calf Raises

You will be running this program on a five week cycle as follows:
The first week do all 4 sets for 8 reps.
The second week do all 4 sets for 9 reps.
The third week do all 4 sets for 10 reps.
The fourth week do all 4 sets for 11 reps.
The fifth week do all 4 sets for 12 reps.
If you got all of the required reps on the fifth week then increase the weight by 10% and repeat the cycle. If you didn't get all of the reps on the fifth week then repeat the cycle with the same weight. You shouldn't need more than one minute rest between the warm up sets and you shouldn't need more than one minute thirty seconds between the work sets.
Do some cardio and abs work on non weight training days.
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
25 Sep 2006
Posts
14,358
Couple of quick questions (probably going to be shot down in flames but hey).

Are eggs a decent source of protein? Is there a safe limit you can eat? They seem to tick all the boxes and would suit my hectic but simple lifestyle. Any issues to watch out for?

Training: is it dangerous/counterproductive/stupid to focus on particular areas when starting out training (more focused on upper body at the moment, with a particular focus on increasing arm size (and strength) and promoting a more V shaped body over my current universal proportions (think pencil).

Thanks.

See here regarding eggs: (eat as many as you like:))

http://www.bhf.org.uk/default.aspx?page=12920

The more varied your diet though the greater profile of micro-nutrients you'll intake which overall will be more beneficial. Meats, fish, vegetables, fruits, nuts should all be in your diet too.

Read GordyR's sticky regarding training. Regardless of whether or not you want to be a bodybuilder. read it. READ IT!

You can have short/long term goals for this & that (arm size, bodyshape etc) but don't neglect other areas of your training to try and achieve them. There are massive benefits to training your lower body and to be taken seriously in pretty much any lifting circle you'll need to train your legs ;) If gives your upper body muscles & joints a chance to rest and more importantly grow. The body is synergistic and will not, within reason, grow out of proportion (naturally).
 
Soldato
Joined
18 May 2010
Posts
22,376
Location
London
Unsatisfactory way for me to end my lifting for 2013. :(

I have built my way up to 28kg dumbbell flat 3x6 and 24kg dumbbell inclines 3x8 which I have successfully been able to push twice a week over the last 3 weeks.

Last week on Thursday I hit the gym with energy and power and thought to my self I 'might' aim for 28kg flat dumbbell 3x7 and possibly try 26kg dumbbell inclines 3x6.

Pff... I failed 3 times in a row to get the 28kg up on my first set. Then struggled again on my second set and needed a spot for 3rd, by which time it was the spot doing all the work.

Same story with inclines, more failures. :confused:

I though to my self it was just a one off and things like this happen from time to time.... well it wasn’t unfortunately.

I went in to the gym today (on the back of no sleep) and couldn’t get the 28kg flats up at all and really struggled with the 24kg inclines. I managed my first set but then that was it.

Yes I know it's easy to say it's the lack of sleep, but I have lifted the above on the back of no sleep before so that’s not the problem.

But I’m scratching my head, why I have lost power and strength literally in a week, as if I was never able to lift 28kg flat dumbbells in the first place...

Diet has been pretty consistant through out gains and failures...

Any ideas?

(Guess it doesn’t matter now, I am finished until Jan as going on holiday for two weeks on Monday!)
 
Soldato
Joined
15 Mar 2010
Posts
11,076
Location
Bucks
The body is synergistic and will not, within reason, grow out of proportion (naturally).

Come to my gym and say that... As someone stated previously this is utter crock and I wish people would stop spouting it like its fact. You only have to walk into any decent weight lifting gym to know that its ********.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom