The 5 year plan to £50k - Accomplished.

[Nix]

It is a very sad state of affairs but unfortunately the lower paid you are, the more you are treated like **** in my experience. I don't know why people do it, its pretty much adding insult to injury.

I have no issue with doing my fair share. The recession and additional circumstances piled in on top though which caused me to get caught in the rut. I did it because I needed to pay the bills and try and help myself out of the rut. Catch-22 situation, really.

I'm there now. Never again.

 

[Housey]

That's exactly my point, his advice is just about beating someone else to get the job. How does that resolve anything? It still means that you can point the finger at someone and say 'Your CV wasn't up to scratch, you didn't try hard enough, you have a poor attitude, you can't blame the world for not having enough jobs to go round.'

'The interview' has always seemed like a poor way to assess suitability or competency to me. A short presentation = hire the best actors/liars.

Then get better at being interviewed and appreciate that this is part of getting a job. It matters not one jot if you think it's the best way, it is the way so acknowledge it, get round it and show the company how great you are and how you are actually the best out there. Again, stop moaning about systems as it will not help you, get good at it. If you're not willing to appreciate you're cutting off your nose to spite your face and appreciate you might be talking about others luck a lot or how you didn't lower yourself to such frivolous things as you collect your pension. The world isn't fair and those who change it are rarely the people who moan about it all the time.

 

[Housey]

The older people with good jobs that deem themselves a success...yes. My point exactly.

You forget we were all young once and as you get older your ego and need to be seen as someone lessens. Simply saying that proves your point is a bit silly.

 

[Bear]

I have no issue with doing my fair share. The recession and additional circumstances piled in on top though which caused me to get caught in the rut. I did it because I needed to pay the bills and try and help myself out of the rut. Catch-22 situation, really.

I'm there now. Never again.

Sorry I didn't mean why people take the jobs that are low paid, I meant the employers that think it is ok to treat people like **** just because they are low paid, I don't understand why they do it.

 

[Nix]

I don't mean why people take the jobs that are low paid, I mean the employers that think it is ok to treat people like **** just because they are low paid.

Oh right. Because they can. Marx has a lot to say on it.

 

[Housey]

I don't mean why people take the jobs that are low paid, I mean the employers that think it is ok to treat people like **** just because they are low paid.

Everybody should be treated as they would expect to be treated themselves. It is classless to be derogatory to anyone and it really gets my goat when I see it.

 

[Robosapien]

Then get better at being interviewed and appreciate that this is part of getting a job. It matters not one jot if you think it's the best way, it is the way so acknowledge it, get round it and show the company how great you are and how you are actually the best out there. Again, stop moaning about systems as it will not help you, get good at it. If you're not willing to appreciate you're cutting off your nose to spite your face and appreciate you might be talking about others luck a lot or how you didn't lower yourself to such frivolous things as you collect your pension. The world isn't fair and those who change it are rarely the people who moan about it all the time.

Why can't someone do both? Surely you can have an opinion about a system regardless of how effectively you engage with it?

 

[HangTime]

That's exactly my point, his advice is just about beating someone else to get the job.

Not entirely - it is mostly about getting responses to job applications which doesn't necessarily mean landing the job. What I'm trying to get across is that even if there are more applicants than vacancies, those applicants who have put themselves across the best way (and are not 'technically inferior' in terms of qualifications and experience of course) are likely to at least get a response to their application. The ones that don't, probably have areas they could improve on.

Yes, if we apply some sort of game theory and everyone behaved optimally then we'd still have an issue of too many applicants and 'luck' would have to choose which get responses, but the job market isn't anywhere near as efficient as that.

I think there will always be some element of 'luck' when dealing with human recruiters (such as how different people prefer the way something was written, or the layout, or font on a CV or whatever and are subconsciously influenced), but people who are persistently failing need to really push to optimise their position and give themselves the best chance. We've all reviewed dozens of CVs posted on this forum and pretty much without fail someone has been able to point out an area that could be improved. Some of the issues are just basic fundamentals like spell checking that totally remove any confidence in how seriously the person is taking their job hunt.

 

[Jono8]

You forget we were all young once and as you get older your ego and need to be seen as someone lessens. Simply saying that proves your point is a bit silly.

But surely you can see that you and the other older members in this thread that have a good career are very likely to not look at this objectively. To do so would be to potentially cast doubt on the reasons for your own success.

I am not saying you are necessarily wrong. I think both yourself and Nix make good points.

It is a difficult subject to analyse in truth but my experience of life so far indicates success can be either entirely luck/who you know, entirely hard work, or a big old mixture of both.

I am sure you have come across incompetent, idiotic and awful people in good, high paid jobs that are only there because of nepotism, a huge amount of luck or just being at the right place at the right time.

 

[Housey]

Why can't someone do both? Surely you can have an opinion about a system regardless of how effectively you engage with it?

Of course they can, never said otherwise.

 

[Nix]

Everybody should be treated as they would expect to be treated themselves. It is classless to be derogatory to anyone and it really gets my goat when I see it.

The pay system seems to be backwards to me. Obviously people tout 'low-skilled' and 'high-skilled' as an excuse, but quite frankly people who do the nasty jobs in society like cleaning public toilets should be paid more than middle managers who do nothing but micro-manage and try to justify their job.

 

[Ev0]

Been an interesting thread to read, sadly I'm not as good with the words as others to be able articulate my thoughts

I do sometimes sit and think though what if xyz hadn't have happened in the past I wouldn't be doing what I am now, would things have turned out as good if something had been different etc.

Is it 'luck',' my own doing, or most likely the combination of the two.

So many things when I think about it have had an element of what I'd call luck, but that on its own wouldn't be enough without doing something myself.

I'm a big believer in making your own path for things, push out that comfort zone and go for that next level as such, but all within reason.

When I was made redundant a few years ago was interesting to see what all my peers were doing who were in the same boat, not many if any used it as a chance to push themselves to something better. But then for them that may well have been enough and what they wanted, I'm not in a position to say they should be doing more.

You don't get 50k job and have little responsibility...unless you're a banker.

Depends on the job and how much responsibility you're talking about as everyone will have some level of responsibility in their job.

I've seen a lot of tech pre sales in IT that commands salaries easily above that mark and the responsibility level has been pretty low in regards to not having any people management responsibility, nor any accountability for the commercials either. You're just a well paid lacky for the sales teams to call upon to use your brain for things.

 

[Robosapien]

Not entirely - it is mostly about getting responses to job applications which doesn't necessarily mean landing the job. What I'm trying to get across is that even if there are more applicants than vacancies, those applicants who have put themselves across the best way (and are not 'technically inferior' in terms of qualifications and experience of course) are likely to at least get a response to their application. The ones that don't, probably have areas they could improve on.

Yes, if we apply some sort of game theory and everyone behaved optimally then we'd still have an issue of too many applicants and 'luck' would have to choose which get responses, but the job market isn't anywhere near as efficient as that.

Do responses increase in proportion to number of applicants? I find that hard to believe pragmatically, if anything I would have thought employers have even less time to consistently sift through the increased number of applications, let alone give everyone who 'meets the bar' the appropriate response - more than likely the bar is just raised. Surely?

 

[Robosapien]

Of course they can, never said otherwise.

Why bemoan the bemoaners at all then?

 

[Housey]

But surely you can see that you and the other older members in this thread that have a good career are very likely to not look at this objectively. To do so would be to potentially cast doubt on the reasons for your own success.

This is the point I don't agree with, though I can only speak for myself. I am very self critical on many things, my post history is testament to that and I feel in the main I am able to be objective and honest in my appraisals of experience, circumstance and in this case success of others. At no point have I spoken about me or how I view my own success or lack of it either so I am not positioning an 'us and them' argument at any stage. I simply don't support the luck argument being the main influence on success, it simply does not bare analysis when you look at business success, it really doesn't. I have interviewed people for years for jobs so what I have shared in this thread is my experience, it is the only empirical stuff I can share really, but I am debating with many people in this thread who can not share that same level of experience, so it is difficult for them to see it from both sides. As you get older your outlook usually changes. Things you once thought and things you once believe are proven false. When it comes to luck many people in this thread seem to be elevating to highly in my opinion as 30 years being around people in work has shown me it is rarely a factor to success particularly as experience grows.

A true story...

I was made redundant from my first job after 4 years, very unfairly as it was dropped on me ironically as I was about to leave for a 'dentist' appointment (read interview for a new job) without any process, but that was the 80's. At that interview I told them about my day and what had just happened and they said that was good news as it meant they were no longer going to have to **** off a customer, from whom I was being poached. I was working as a computer programmer/operator for a small manufacturing company. I wondered why they kept asking me to customer reference visits and they told me 'because I was so good with their prospective customers, I should be a salesman'. I liked that idea, made some connections and out sprung a very covert interview for my employer was one of their big customers.

However they told me they needed the weekend to put and offer together and would speak to me late on the following Monday. As I left the interview I got nervous that I was potentially out of work if this offer didn't come through. I lived at home with my mum then still but I got up on the Monday morning, grabbed a yellow pages and phoned every single computer company in there aiming for the MD. I secured 9 interviews for sales roles that morning, 9. No CV, no HR, I simply phoned up, postponed what I felt I could bring and pushed for an interview. I was 21.

Now some people will pull that apart and talk about the luck of it but I know that luck had no real influence. I got the job offer that Monday PM and took it, doubling my wage and gaining a brand new company car after 3 months.

 

[Housey]

The pay system seems to be backwards to me. Obviously people tout 'low-skilled' and 'high-skilled' as an excuse, but quite frankly people who do the nasty jobs in society like cleaning public toilets should be paid more than middle managers who do nothing but micro-manage and try to justify their job.

Nix, you have a logic that bare little resemblance to reality. Companies pay for value and just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. Walk in the shoes of those you criticise before criticising. I appreciate that some managers are utterly useless, but they rarely last and if they do are actually rarely useless. To say manages do nothing devalues anything you have to say hugely as its obvious you have not idea the pressures many managers are under. Give me exertion over stress anyway, but frankly anyone can clean a road, life a box, paint a window which is why they are paid less.

 

[Housey]

Why bemoan the bemoaners at all then?

Read the thread. Stop taking 5% of the discussion and trying to make it the debate.

 

[KaHn]

Nix, you have a logic that bare little resemblance to reality. Companies pay for value and just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. Walk in the shoes of those you criticise before criticising. I appreciate that some managers are utterly useless, but they rarely last and if they do are actually rarely useless. To say manages do nothing devalues anything you have to say hugely as its obvious you have not idea the pressures many managers are under. Give me exertion over stress anyway, but frankly anyone can clean a road, life a box, paint a window which is why they are paid less.

I'd give up now Housey, this is a struggle nix has had for a while.

Nix, congrats on moving on finally, hopefully this is what you need to decide what you want to do with your life.

Op congrats, onwards and upwards.

KaHn

 

[Housey]

I'd give up now Housey, this is a struggle nix has had for a while.

Nix, congrats on moving on finally, hopefully this is what you need to decide what you want to do with your life.

Op congrats, onwards and upwards.

KaHn

Yup, think we have debated it to death frankly. Wasn't aware it was a historical open sore for Nix? Oh well, hope the new outlook works and well done OP.

 

[Janesy B]

Housey is right, useless managers soon get found out and the ones that are good add more value to the company than what they take in salary.