** The AMD Navi Thread **

[D.P.]

So the AMD demo on the shop floor was all a complete lie?

DP you are amazing never change please.

Where did I say it is a lie?

I have read several news pieces on this. Some say the AMd screen was running at native 1440p, and there was absolutely no up-scaling going on at all, simply sharpening.
Other sites claim a 1440p image was first sharpened and then upscaled through the standard GPU or monitor scaler, the same scaling that has existed since the existing of digital TV and monitors.

I haven't read one single shred of evidence that AMD's sharpening is doing any upscaling at all.


Put it this way, if AMD' sharpening was actually upscaling an image then why would they call it sharpening and no some kind of scaling/super resolution technology? Because it isn't upscaling, it is sharpening.

AMD themselves state that the Fidelity FX is simply applying a Contrast Adaptive Sharpening filter.

 

[D.P.]

To be fair some of us are more interested in what we gain than how it actually works.



While you might have a point, what AMD done was show that DLSS might be the inferior way to get the results. Without knowing the ins and outs of there method then it's pointless to keep assuming it's what has been around for a while. Its sharpening but is there anything else to what they are doing.

But AMD's sharpenring is not giving the same result. You don;t gain the same thing. DLSS increases resolution. AMD's sharpening merely sharpens,. Nvidia's sharpening filter also sharpens.

You need to first understand the difference between sharpening and upscaling resolution. They are related, but they are not the same, the result is difference and the usability of each is different. They also aren't independent. You can apply sharpening to an upscaled image, in fact this is very typically the case.

 

[shankly1985]

Where did I say it is a lie?

I have read several news pieces on this. Some say the AMd screen was running at native 1440p, and there was absolutely no up-scaling going on at all, simply sharpening.
Other sites claim a 1440p image was first sharpened and then upscaled through the standard GPU or monitor scaler, the same scaling that has existed since the existing of digital TV and monitors.

I haven't read one single shred of evidence that AMD's sharpening is doing any upscaling at all.


Put it this way, if AMD' sharpening was actually upscaling an image then why would they call it sharpening and no some kind of scaling/super resolution technology? Because it isn't upscaling, it is sharpening.

AMD themselves state that the Fidelity FX is simply applying a Contrast Adaptive Sharpening filter.

It is sharpening that is completely correct. The upscaling is happening when you run a resolution outside of the native resolution. For example 1440p on a 4k display no matter how you want to pretend it's not happening is called upscaling.

AMDs sharpening is fixing this by making it look better.
It's a completely different approach to what DLSS is doing that I can agree on but like been pointed out countless times to you does it really matter what is doing what if the final outcome looks like its running 4k?
The answer is No!

If I owned a 4k monitor and used to at 1440p got the performance of 1440p upscaling to an image that looks 4k it's simply a win win who bloody cares if its not doing nvidia magic AI

 

[TheRealDeal]

But it has nothing to do with DLSS. The end result is very different.

AMD should have been comparing their sharpening to Nvidia's sharpening, not DLSS. But of course, AMD need to pull some PR stunts in order to trick people in to thinking they have something like DLSS.

Again though i couldn't care what it is doing but more what the end result is. If what AMD are doing looks better than DLSS with similar performance then who cares what the method to get there is. When i turn on a game for the first time i set it up as best i can to get the look and performance i want. That's really the last time i think about the options i have ticked as it's time to play. DLSS and AMD's new technique are no different to any other option as whatever looks and runs the best is what i will go for. In one of your posts above you say it might come to Polaris and Vega. I hope you are right as it might give my 64 some more life on my 4k monitor.

 

[shankly1985]

Again though i couldn't care what it is doing but more what the end result is. If what AMD are doing looks better than DLSS with similar performance then who cares what the method to get there is. When i turn on a game for the first time i set it up as best i can to get the look and performance i want. That's really the last time i think about the options i have ticked as it's time to play. DLSS and AMD's new technique are no different to any other option as whatever looks and runs the best is what i will go for. In one of your posts above you say it might come to Polaris and Vega. I hope you are right as it might give my 64 some more life on my 4k monitor.

Far as I know only anti lag is coming to older GPUs.

 

[Martini1991]

It is sharpening that is completely correct. The upscaling is happening when you run a resolution outside of the native resolution. For example 1440p on a 4k display no matter how you want to pretend it's not happening is called upscaling.

AMDs sharpening is fixing this by making it look better.
It's a completely different approach to what DLSS is doing that I can agree on but like been pointed out countless times to you does it really matter what is doing what if the final outcome looks like its running 4k?
The answer is No!

If I owned a 4k monitor and used to at 1440p got the performance of 1440p upscaling to an image that looks 4k it's simply a win win who bloody cares if its not doing nvidia magic AI

You're posting as if it's making a 1440P render look like a native 4K render on a 4K screen. That emphasis is entirely your own.

 

[shankly1985]

You're posting as if it's making a 1440P render look like a native 4K render on a 4K screen. That emphasis is entirely your own.

My view is simple it's all based on what has been shown and talked about.
My final opinion will need to wait till July 7th when it's tested fully.

Simple as that.

 

[Martini1991]

My view is simple it's all based on what has been shown and talked about.
My final opinion will need to wait till July 7th when it's tested fully.

Simple as that.

You're applying your own emphasis to what's been said.
You're the only person I know who's hyped up to buy a GPU not powerful enough to render native resolution of their monitor.

It's just sharpening up a soft image with a post processing technique. It might do a good job at it, but I'd rather have a powerful 4K capable GPU.

Reminds me of the hype made of the "Free AA" with MLAA.

 

[bru]

Bottom line is if whatever they are doing looks good then this is great.

If they can suddenly bring it to the earlier vega and polaris architectures, then surely the question should be asked why wasn't it done sooner.
Answer: it wouldn't of been a Navi selling point then.

 

[D.P.]

Bottom line is if whatever they are doing looks good then this is great.

If they can suddenly bring it to the earlier vega and polaris architectures, then surely the question should be asked why wasn't it done sooner.
Answer: it wouldn't of been a Navi selling point then.

One shouldn't take that I am negative of what AMD has done here. A little post processing to sharpen an image probably has some uses.

The issue is people trying to make out that it is doing something that it isn't. Moreover, trying to suggest that it is an actual alternative to DLSS when it is nothing of the sort.


I actually think AMD's contrast based sharpening will almost certainly work better than Nvidia's current sharpening. That is something trivial for nvidia to change in a future driver update as all these adaptive sharpening techniques are well published and have no IP issues or trade secrets.
First hit on Google" https://github.com/bacondither/Adaptive-sharpen

 

[D.P.]

It is sharpening that is completely correct. The upscaling is happening when you run a resolution outside of the native resolution. For example 1440p on a 4k display no matter how you want to pretend it's not happening is called upscaling.

AMDs sharpening is fixing this by making it look better.
It's a completely different approach to what DLSS is doing that I can agree on but like been pointed out countless times to you does it really matter what is doing what if the final outcome looks like its running 4k?
The answer is No!

If I owned a 4k monitor and used to at 1440p got the performance of 1440p upscaling to an image that looks 4k it's simply a win win who bloody cares if its not doing nvidia magic AI

You still don't get it though. The image wont be as good as a native 4K image, it wont be as good as DLSS and it is absolutely nothing new. You could have done this with Nvidia drivers for 2 years.


If you care about the final outcome then you need to care about the differences between sharpening and upscaling, and you need to compare the same intended outcome .

AMD's sharpening can only be compared to Nvidia's sharpening.

 

[D.P.]

Again though i couldn't care what it is doing but more what the end result is. If what AMD are doing looks better than DLSS with similar performance then who cares what the method to get there is. When i turn on a game for the first time i set it up as best i can to get the look and performance i want. That's really the last time i think about the options i have ticked as it's time to play. DLSS and AMD's new technique are no different to any other option as whatever looks and runs the best is what i will go for. In one of your posts above you say it might come to Polaris and Vega. I hope you are right as it might give my 64 some more life on my 4k monitor.

Again, the end result is not the same. So if what you care about is the end result then you need to be making the right comparison.


I 100% agree that the method is irreverent, only the outcome matters. But you cannot compare an apple to an ornage and cliam one is better or that AMD's oranges mean that Nvidia doesn't need its apple any more. The 2 are not the same and service different purposed giving different results.

 

[Martini1991]

DLSS isn't even aimed at doing the same thing as what this RIS is doing.
It was completely the wrong thing for AMD to compare it with.

DLSS from my understanding is about using this "magic AI" to give you more frames when you're running your GPU to the wire.

 

[shankly1985]

You're applying your own emphasis to what's been said.
You're the only person I know who's hyped up to buy a GPU not powerful enough to render native resolution of their monitor.

It's just sharpening up a soft image with a post processing technique. It might do a good job at it, but I'd rather have a powerful 4K capable GPU.

Reminds me of the hype made of the "Free AA" with MLAA.

Erm? Where have I once told anyone on here to go and buy Navi 5700? I made my point very clear early on that I will be waiting for Navi 20.

What I have said though is Navi is the step in the right direction and made it clear that they are still buyers out there that will be happy with Navi 10.

 

[D.P.]

DLSS isn't even aimed at doing the same thing as what this RIS is doing.
It was completely the wrong thing for AMD to compare it with.

DLSS from my understanding is about using this "magic AI" to give you more frames when you're running your GPU to the wire.

AMD purposely comparison it to DLSS because Navi has no answer to DLSS and no answer to ray-tracing, as well has offering no price-performance advntage.

They pulled a PR stunt to try and fool people into thinking sharpening an image is the same as DLSS. ANd it worked, the AMD supporters are happily trying to push this comparison when it is entirely incorrect.

Nvidia have a sharpening filter available in their drivers. AMD should have compared it to that. AMD's sharpening is liekly better at this time. the could have been honest and shown companions where MAD's sharpening looked better. But of course, a PR campaign to try and dismiss DLSS is much more effective because the reality is almost no one cares about sharpening an image.

 

[Martini1991]

Erm? Where have I once told anyone on here to go and buy Navi 5700? I made my point very clear early on that I will be waiting for Navi 20.

What I have said though is Navi is the step in the right direction and made it clear that they are still buyers out there that will be happy with Navi 10.

How's Navi 10 a step in the right direction? It's worse price/performance than a Vega 64/56 and they've already got a stronger (Albeit EOL) GPU with the VII.
If it £300 then sure it'd be brilliant. It however is closer to £450.

Sure there's people who'd be happy with a Navi 10. But people who are happy to buy a Navi 10 price/performance wise would have bought a 2070 assuming no bias.
If my Vega 64 turned into a Navi 10 over night I'd be happy too.

 

[TheRealDeal]

Far as I know only anti lag is coming to older GPUs.

If that's the case then it must be doing something that only Navi can do so not just Sharpening.

DLSS isn't even aimed at doing the same thing as what this RIS is doing.
It was completely the wrong thing for AMD to compare it with.

DLSS from my understanding is about using this "magic AI" to give you more frames when you're running your GPU to the wire.

Well say i had this feature for my Vega 64 on my 4k screen. I am running it to the wire. If i could drop to 1440p and make the image look somewhere close with this sharpening then it's in effect doing the same thing for me as DLSS is for those using it to claw performance back at the settings they want to use. Basically i would be gaining the performance i needed without having to drop image quality to much. It's 2 very different ways of achieving a similar goal. Any how until this gets released and reviewed we won't really know. DLSS looked and sounded great until it got in games and was then slated for a bit. People are still not overly impressed with DLSS atm and it may turn out the same here.

 

[shankly1985]

You still don't get it though. The image wont be as good as a native 4K image, it wont be as good as DLSS and it is absolutely nothing new. You could have done this with Nvidia drivers for 2 years.


If you care about the final outcome then you need to care about the differences between sharpening and upscaling, and you need to compare the same intended outcome .

AMD's sharpening can only be compared to Nvidia's sharpening.

No, you don't seem to get it!! I haven't said it will be better than Native! Not once have I said that. Nothing is better than running native SIMPLE!

Why won't it be as good as DLSS? Because you said so? Again going back to the demo the guy clearly says it looks sharper and less blur image something that DLSS still even now has an issue with when comparing it to native res.

Again, the end result is not the same. So if what you care about is the end result then you need to be making the right comparison.


I 100% agree that the method is irreverent, only the outcome matters. But you cannot compare an apple to an ornage and cliam one is better or that AMD's oranges mean that Nvidia doesn't need its apple any more. The 2 are not the same and service different purposed giving different results.

Then you could argue Gsync vs Freesync then!

One needed hardware built into the monitor the other into the display controller!
Two very different approaches to achieve the same goal!

Again here AMD compared this to DLSS
So why do you think I also comparing this to DLSS? To very different approaches to achieving a similar goal "IMPROVING THE FINAL IMAGES WITHOUT THE PERFORMANCE HIT FROM NATIVE" Maybe caps will help you here?

 

[shankly1985]

How's Navi 10 a step in the right direction? It's worse price/performance than a Vega 64/56 and they've already got a stronger (Albeit EOL) GPU with the VII.
If it £300 then sure it'd be brilliant. It however is closer to £450.

Sure there's people who'd be happy with a Navi 10. But people who are happy to buy a Navi 10 price/performance wise would have bought a 2070 assuming no bias.
If my Vega 64 turned into a Navi 10 over night I'd be happy too.

Am talking from an architecture point of view, Navi has improved a lot over GCN its scalable so much more than before and now Navi will be available in Mobile, Console and PC bringing everything together.

I can only agree with AMDs pricing here, its a letdown but from what was shown am very excited to see navi 20 next year.

 

[Martini1991]

Well say i had this feature for my Vega 64 on my 4k screen. I am running it to the wire. If i could drop to 1440p and make the image look somewhere close with this sharpening then it's in effect doing the same thing for me as DLSS is for those using it to claw performance they don't have. Basically i would be gaining the performance i needed without having to drop image quality to much. It's 2 very different ways of achieving a similar goal. Any how until this gets released and reviewed we won't really know. DLSS looked and sounded great until it got in games and was then slated for a bit. People are still not overly impressed with DLSS atm and it may turn out the same here.

You could just run 2560x1440 on your 4K and knock back a few pints beforehand.
Or sit further back.