** The AMD Navi Thread **

[FoxEye]

Wasn't RX 590 around £299 at launch? A Navi card at £250 which matches a 590 would represent a saving for the same performance, so you could argue it would be acceptable

Nobody would buy it tho. Nobody.

AMD can do what they want, but if they want to sell their cards they can't release a 590 perf card for £250.

So, seriously, what would you have for £250?

 

[Satchfanuk]

Nobody would buy it tho. Nobody.

AMD can do what they want, but if they want to sell their cards they can't release a 590 perf card for £250.

So, seriously, what would you have for £250?

So once Polaris cards are gone and this £250 Navi card is all AMD have at that price point, nobody with a budget of £250 would be interested in buying it? If you say so.

Well personally, I wouldn't buy anything for £250. I have a Vega 56 so I would be looking for higher performance if I was looking to upgrade, but I'm not looking thanks to current prices. I'll wait to see where the prices end up over the next few months and also see what the reviews show about performance of Navi. Until then, I'm happy with what I have.

 

[FoxEye]

Fair enough. I think they need to put 580+ 50% at £250, but I can't see it happening. That would basically be a 5700, and we know where that is in the stack....

 

[Satchfanuk]

Fair enough. I think they need to put 580+ 50% at £250, but I can't see it happening. That would basically be a 5700, and we know where that is in the stack....

It wouldn't surprise me to see the 5700 end up down there once the Polaris cards and Vega are gone.

Plus, if the Sapphire leak turns out to be based on actually products and not just covering off in case these SKUs appear, AMD will have to make room in there price structure to fit these other cards

 

[Besty]

Fair enough. I think they need to put 580+ 50% at £250, but I can't see it happening. That would basically be a 5700, and we know where that is in the stack....

Once shipping chip manufacture cost is all about volume.

100m playstation 5 consoles 40m Xbox Navis will ensure that prices will drop for 7nm chips.

Whatever the yields are now they will fix it over the next 18 months.

The points myself and others have been making is that there is too much focus on what happens in July and really, the good news for the PC Games industry starts in July, it won’t stop now for a few years.

The PC gaming industry can not afford to have the entry barrier for a high quality experience set at £500-600 per GPUs mark these new consoles will kill the industry off and thankfully we have reached a watershed moment where from next month, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

i would expect to see a £250 card (excluding VAT) to appear around Q3 next year.

 

[Grim5]

With this logic we just end up with more and more expensive cards
That's not progress.

That’s a short term view

The long term is we all end up on consoles or cloud streaming because physical PC hardware is too expensive for a consumer

 

[ANDREW GREEN]

Nobody would buy it tho. Nobody.

AMD can do what they want, but if they want to sell their cards they can't release a 590 perf card for £250.

So, seriously, what would you have for £250?

This isn't true, Gibbo said the 590 was selling quite well at launch. Not everyone is as price sensitive in terms of performance per dollar as the members of this forum. And most won't do near the level of research we have

 

[ANDREW GREEN]

Once shipping chip manufacture cost is all about volume.

100m playstation 5 consoles 40m Xbox Navis will ensure that prices will drop for 7nm chips.

Whatever the yields are now they will fix it over the next 18 months.

The points myself and others have been making is that there is too much focus on what happens in July and really, the good news for the PC Games industry starts in July, it won’t stop now for a few years.

The PC gaming industry can not afford to have the entry barrier for a high quality experience set at £500-600 per GPUs mark these new consoles will kill the industry off and thankfully we have reached a watershed moment where from next month, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

i would expect to see a £250 card (excluding VAT) to appear around Q3 next year.

This economies of scale argument is a very good point, makes me thinking buying a GPU in 2-3 years time will offer a big bump in perf per pound

 

[Sargatanas2511]

This economies of scale argument is a very good point, makes me thinking buying a GPU in 2-3 years time will offer a big bump in perf per pound

Not if one company owns the high end it won't.

 

[TNA]

On a benchmark that is a complete mess and favours Nvidia massively!! But I wouldn't expect anything else from yourself, let's wait and see how well it does on a real game that is well optimised without TrashWorks!

I mean just look at how horrible the games frame latency is even on Nvidia here!! A total pile of GameWorks Trash!!

https://youtu.be/cpxoyiYpFUU?t=73

Agreed. Pointless comparing it for this benchmark. Makes an already disappointing card look much worse. But let’s wait and see proper full reviews first.

 

[FoxEye]

i would expect to see a £250 card (excluding VAT) to appear around Q3 next year.

So you think AMD will leave the 580/590 to fight against the 1660 Ti (and newer) for a whole year? Over a year in fact?

Tbh I don't know if AMD are even serious about PC GPU atm, but if they do that... that would be madness.

 

[Besty]

So you think AMD will leave the 580/590 to fight against the 1660 Ti (and newer) for a whole year? Over a year in fact?

Tbh I don't know if AMD are even serious about PC GPU atm, but if they do that... that would be madness.

We will have to see what gets announced, there is surely a gap for a 4700 and a 4800 set of cards before the end of 2019 using an even smaller Navi-like design which allows them to cut costs in the interim whilst they improve and refine yields for the bigger Navi 7nm chips.

 

[Martini1991]

That’s a short term view

The long term is we all end up on consoles or cloud streaming because physical PC hardware is too expensive for a consumer

That sounds no better lol

 

[FoxEye]

So once Polaris cards are gone and this £250 Navi card is all AMD have at that price point, nobody with a budget of £250 would be interested in buying it? If you say so.

Since you sneakily edited your post I'll reply again

Let's say Polaris goes EOL and there's nothing for £250 at all. Nothing below £380 for the 5700.

Let's say AMD decide to release a new 570 perf card for £250. People will have no choice but to buy it? "If you say so."

Clearly just having a/any card at a given price point is not enough. It has to justify the asking price. Both vs the competition and vs other cards up and down the product stack.

If AMD were to let Polaris die and then release a 580/590 perf card for £250 it would get battered. And served with chips and salad.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I still remember the people arguing Titan class cards existed because the new 28NM node was very expensive,due to some conveniently leaked PR slides. Then it was applied to 16NM. Yeah,that worked out well with companies making bigger and bigger margins,and billions of dollars. Consumers need to stop covering for these companies,because if they see people justifying price increases,they will increase prices. Looks like 3rd times a charm, right??

I also cannot believe people were quite happy to crticise Nvidia over the pricing of Turing and are happy to give AMD a pass. The RX5700XT and RX5700 are launching 9 months after cards like the RTX2070. The RTX2070 was a poorly priced card,and the RTX2060 was available for around £300 for months.

The problem is I think Turing is a stop-gap generation too,and that we could see replacement cards in 9 months time or a bit longer. It could be a year or less until we see much faster Nvidia cards.

 

[Grim5]

Turing is an excellent Architecture produced on a stop gap node. Samsung’s 7nm EUV will make Turing shine next gen

 

[B12B6]

With this logic we just end up with more and more expensive cards
That's not progress.

Smaller nodes will increase density but give lower freguency and much much more expensive dies. Like AMD said it was miracle 7nm cpu had higher freguenzy than 12nm. I dont know what you would call it, but this is where the industry is going. This is the reason why AMD chiplet design is such a big leap.

Not once yields improve. The more viable dies you get out of each wafer, the less you have to charge for each one to make the same amount of money.

As 7nm is still immature (I assume) that yields aren't that good right now. The larger the die, the more it affects the yields. As the process improves, yields should increase and prices should come down.

Once the process is out of risk production the yields are somewhat ok. You are kind of right, but yields cannot compensate for the actual price of designing the die. With every node upgrade the time for die paying itself back is longer and longer.

I still remember the people arguing Titan class cards existed because the new 28NM node was very expensive,due to some conveniently leaked PR slides. Then it was applied to 16NM. Yeah,that worked out well with companies making bigger and bigger margins,and billions of dollars. Consumers need to stop covering for these companies,because if they see people justifying price increases,they will increase prices. Looks like 3rd times a charm, right??

Do you know why we have basicly only 3 foundries anymore on latest node? Every nodejump from now own is so much more expensive. On older nodes, like the jump from 28nm to 16nm we were talking tens of millions$ of increase on designing the die. From 16nm to 7nm we are talking about hundreds of millions$, yes that is right hundreds of millions. AMD using the same die from servers to desktop cpus in gift from God. If they tried to stay in the game with designing multiple dies they would have been long gone by now. Every node from now on is so much more expensive its hard to comprehend. Like I said before, EUV is going to bring the cost down. Jumping to 5nm you can guess it, its again hundreds of millions over 7nm.

 

[FoxEye]

You seem to be making every excuse/justification for higher and higher prices.

If that's the reality, what do you think will happen to the PC gaming market? It will continue to survive and thrive? With mid-range cards retailing for £600+? I don't think so.

The practical reality is that most people don't have unlimited funds.

There can sometimes be an unsavoury note of "I can afford it, sucks to be you" at times here. But if you end up being the 1% of the population that can afford PC gaming, tell me if you think the developers will continue to make an effort to support an incredibly small niche market.

We can't have ever-increasing prices whether you think there's a good reason for it or not.

Prices have to stay at a level that most people can afford. Otherwise you end up with a very small, very exclusive club.

 

[B12B6]

You seem to be making every excuse/justification for higher and higher prices.

If that's the reality, what do you think will happen to the PC gaming market? It will continue to survive and thrive? With mid-range cards retailing for £600+? I don't think so.

The practical reality is that most people don't have unlimited funds.

There can sometimes be an unsavoury note of "I can afford it, sucks to be you" at times here. But if you end up being the 1% of the population that can afford PC gaming, tell me if you think the developers will continue to make an effort to support an incredibly small niche market.

We can't have ever-increasing prices whether you think there's a good reason for it or not.

Prices have to stay at a level that most people can afford. Otherwise you end up with a very small, very exclusive club.

No, Im just telling you what you dont want to hear.
Prices can stay the same if cards/die is more expensive? If the die on 14nm cost 25$ and they sell it for 40$ and on 7nm it cost 50$ they cannot sell it for 40$, you understand that right? You or me wanting cheap parts is not going to keep the price down when manufacturing cost are going to skyrocket. I wanted 5700XT to be 100$ cheaper and would bought it right away. Its price now wouldnt be any problem for me to buy, but i dont want to pay that much for gpu that cant do ultimately what i want (run VR on high fps) and I dont have that much time to play at the moment. People will always pay what they can afford. If you have 250$ then you are going to buy 250$ gpu. Nvidia and AMD will add more compute perf every new node but cost/perf for the buyer is not going to make big jumps. You dont like to hear it but its going to be the truth. PC gaming wont die, but consoles and cloud gaming will be taking bigger junks out of pc gaming. There is always going to be harcore gamers like us who want keyboard, mouse, low latency.

 

[FoxEye]

So again, if prices are going to "skyrocket", what do you think will happen to the market?

Do you think skyrocketing prices is going to be sustainable?

Don't forget this isn't just the high end. With Navi, the mid-range is now starting at $400. A couple years ago the mid-range started at $150.

You think people aren't going to think twice about buying even a mid-range PC/upgrade?

Otherwise I'd love to know where are all the money trees people have found.

PC gaming wont die, but consoles and cloud gaming will be taking bigger junks out of pc gaming.

Yup, this seems like the only possible outcome.