The American Police

[deuse]

I'll ask a simple question that only needs a simple answer,

Has widespread gun ownership made the US a better country?

You tell us since you know a lot about the US and have lived there.
A simple answer will do.

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

There was 9,700 crimes involving firearms taking place in the UK in 2020.
The cops seized about 500. Where are the rest?

But I thought making guns illegal stopped their use by criminals?!??!One

 

[deuse]

But I thought making guns illegal stopped their use by criminals?!??!One

I thought that to.

Now the police count CS spray as a gun.
Better start taking hairspray around

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

I thought that to.

Now the police count CS spray as a gun.
Better start taking hairspray around

People forget that the USA borders one of the most violent countries in the world as well.

 

[fez]

I'll ask a simple question that only needs a simple answer,

Has widespread gun ownership made the US a better country?

All you need to know is that the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

In all seriousness though no, its a complete mess over there. Its also really really sad that so many americans think they are John Wayne and when someone comes into their home with a gun they will turn into rambo. Its like keyboard warriors in real life. That fat sack of **** feels like a bad ass because he has a small army worth of guns in his house.

 

[fez]

People forget that the USA borders one of the most violent countries in the world as well.

Bloody Canada eh.

 

[deuse]

The audacity of someone in America mocking British firearms legislation is almost too much. It does explain a lot though.

In the UK you can only use a spray on nasty people which is "Self Defence Protection Spray which is UK legal, not toxic and uses NO dangerous chemicals."

 

[deuse]

All you need to know is that the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

In all seriousness though no, its a complete mess over there. Its also really really sad that so many americans think they are John Wayne and when someone comes into their home with a gun they will turn into rambo. Its like keyboard warriors in real life. That fat sack of **** feels like a bad ass because he has a small army worth of guns in his house.

So you would prefer the UK way?
If someone shots at you or comes at you to take your head off. you use "Self Defence Protection Spray which is UK legal, not toxic and uses NO dangerous chemicals." is the best way to go
That's going to stop the robber in there tracks

 

[The Running Man]

I'll ask a simple question that only needs a simple answer,

Has widespread gun ownership made the US a better country?

Without guns would it even be a country in the respect that it is now?

I mean sure it could just be full of red indians living in high rise Tipi's, but better is very subjective.

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

All you need to know is that the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

In all seriousness though no, its a complete mess over there. Its also really really sad that so many americans think they are John Wayne and when someone comes into their home with a gun they will turn into rambo. Its like keyboard warriors in real life. That fat sack of **** feels like a bad ass because he has a small army worth of guns in his house.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhs...-violence-should-include-how-guns-save-lives/

Research would suggest your opinions are wrong.

 

[fez]

So you would prefer the UK way?
If someone shots at you or comes at you to take your head off. you use "Self Defence Protection Spray which is UK legal, not toxic and uses NO dangerous chemicals." is the best way to go
That's going to stop the robber in there tracks

No the UK way is that almost no one comes at you with a gun because almost no one has one. The chances of someone in the UK ever seeing a gun outside of a legal firearm is tiny.

If someone came at me with a gun I would just do what they told me to do. Even if I had a gun on me, if someone was pointing a gun at me I wouldn't go for mine because they would find it very easy to shoot me before I got it. Americans don't seem to be able to fathom the idea that very very very very few people in the UK have any fear of guns or being shot unless they are a serious criminal.

 

[Nasher]

No the UK way is that almost no one comes at you with a gun because almost no one has one. The chances of someone in the UK ever seeing a gun outside of a legal firearm is tiny.

If someone came at me with a gun I would just do what they told me to do. Even if I had a gun on me, if someone was pointing a gun at me I wouldn't go for mine because they would find it very easy to shoot me before I got it. Americans don't seem to be able to fathom the idea that very very very very few people in the UK have any fear of guns or being shot unless they are a serious criminal.

Exactly. I've never even heard a gunshot outside of a range or farm.

You can legaly own guns in the UK (bar handguns or automatics), but there isn't a national obsession with them like in the US. No one cares about owning one.

Someone waving a gun around on the street is most likely going to get shot, it's an easy decision for the police.

 

[fez]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhs...-violence-should-include-how-guns-save-lives/

Research would suggest your opinions are wrong.

Are you trying to tell me that in a country with ~400m guns and where there is a high chance anyone committing a crime could have a gun that "good guys" with guns actually stop some of those. Well colour me shocked!

If only the "bad guys" had guns of course there would be far greater damage done by them.

Thats not really the discussion though is it. What is safer, a population without guns in everyones hands or a population with guns in everyones hands.

The US homicide rate is 4.96/100k and the UK is 1.2/100k. Considering killing someone is quite easy if you really want to, what is causing the US to have 4x the homicide rate of the UK. Could it possibly be something to do with the easy availability of guns.

 

[The Running Man]

Are you trying to tell me that in a country with ~400m guns and where there is a high chance anyone committing a crime could have a gun that "good guys" with guns actually stop some of those. Well colour me shocked!

If only the "bad guys" had guns of course there would be far greater damage done by them.

Thats not really the discussion though is it. What is safer, a population without guns in everyones hands or a population with guns in everyones hands.

The US homicide rate is 4.96/100k and the UK is 1.2/100k. Considering killing someone is quite easy if you really want to, what is causing the US to have 4x the homicide rate of the UK. Could it possibly be something to do with the easy availability of guns.

Imagine certain types of crime weren't a thing, for example if certain ethnic groups had the same homicide rates as the white majority or Hispanic minority in the US the homicide rate would likely half or be lower putting the UK / US homicide rate at more comparable ratios.

 

[The Running Man]

Between 1980 and 2008, blacks were
disproportionately represented as both homicide
victims and offenders (Cooper and Smith, 2011).
The homicide victimization rate for blacks (27.8
per 100,000) was six times higher than the rate
for whites (4.5 per 100,000) (figure 1). Blacks
accounted for slightly more than 51 percent of
all gun homicide victims between 1980 and 2008,
despite representing only about 13 percent of the
U.S. population. The homicide offending rate for blacks (34.4 per 100,000) was almost eight times
higher than the rate for whites (4.5 per 100,000)
(figure 2).

The vast majority of homicides are intra-
racial, with 84 percent of white victims killed by
whites and 93 percent of black victims killed by
blacks (figure 3). Black males between the ages
of 18 and 24 are dramatically overrepresented in
homicide. Homicides of young black males in this
age category peaked at 195.9 victimizations per
100,000 in 1993 and subsequently declined to 91.1
victimizations per 100,000 in 2008. Homicides by
young adult black males peaked at 365 offenders
per 100,000 in 1993 and subsequently declined to
175.8 offenders per 100,000 in 2008.

Can you imagine 13% of the population literally killing ya'll to death?

 

[fez]

Exactly. I've never even heard a gunshot outside of a range or farm.

You can legaly own guns in the UK (bar handguns or automatics), but there isn't a national obsession with them like in the US. No one cares about owning one.

Yeah, this just seems to be something Americans can't comprehend. Guns are not a thing over here for 99% of people. If someone breaks into your home, you don't think "I wonder if they have a gun".

Someone waving a gun around on the street is most likely going to get shot, it's an easy decision for the police.

I didn't think that our police were even allowed to engage gunmen without shooting to kill them. You have a gun and they will put you down.

Imagine certain types of crime weren't a thing, for example if certain ethnic groups had the same homicide rates as the white majority or Hispanic minority in the US the homicide rate would likely half or be lower putting the UK / US homicide rate at more comparable ratios.

What do you mean? Every country has minority and ethnic groups. Show me a country that has a super high homicide rate that doesn't have easy access to guns. Do you genuinely think that the proliferation of guns in the US has no effect on their homicide rate?

 

[fez]

Can you imagine 13% of the population literally killing ya'll to death?

So you said that if you take out the minority groups their crime rate would be similar to ours and yet that says that its 4.5/100k amoung whites and 27.8/100k amoung blacks. Which is completely contradiction your first point....

Can you imagine if no one had easy access to a weapon that you could just point at someone in anger and kill them. Can you imagine if the police didn't have the idea that anyone they stop for a crime is quite likely to have a gun on them and didn't have an itchy trigger finger as a result.

 

[The Running Man]

So you said that if you take out the minority groups their crime rate would be similar to ours and yet that says that its 4.5/100k amoung whites and 27.8/100k amoung blacks. Which is completely contradiction your first point....

Can you imagine if no one had easy access to a weapon that you could just point at someone in anger and kill them. Can you imagine if the police didn't have the idea that anyone they stop for a crime is quite likely to have a gun on them and didn't have an itchy trigger finger as a result.

Thats not what I said, i said that if all minority groups in the US had similar rates to white/hispanic groups then the ratios would be more comparable .

As it is you have one group who far exceed the number and increase the ratio so significantly that it completely skews the numbers to an extent where it looks like the US has a huge gun problem.

It does have a gun problem but only due to a minority not the majority who seem to be able to control those twitchy trigger fingers pretty well.

 

[Werewolf]

That's the worst firearms act in the world...Or the laziest.

Or one that doesn't allow easy loopholes like "oh it's got a slightly different stock" or "it's not prohibited because it's got an 8 round magazine rather than a 9 round one", or "we'll change the grip to avoid the new law" as the manufacturer changes one small aspect of it to avoid a ban and then carries on selling what is effectively the same model but with a cosmetic difference.

Basically any device that is primarily designed to be used as a non contact weapon is covered by the firearms laws, including such classics as crossbows.
As are things like toy guns used in a threatening manner, or even just something gun shaped if used to threaten in the same manner as a real gun (intent is taken seriously).
The law is broad with the emphasis on the prosecution to make a case for it being broken, rather than having hundreds of individual bits of legislation for every conceivable variation, or new thing (it's easy to roll say a ban on tasers into existing law).

Oddly enough you don't tend to get shot for holding a mobile phone, or even a toy gun in the UK, as our cops tend to be properly trained to a national standard that gets reviewed and updated when needed, and officers who repeatedly mess up face consequences that are more than just paid leave as seems to be the case in so many instances of US police officer messing up repeatedly (or flat out breaking the law).

Years ago we had a member who IIRC encountered the wrong end of a UK armed response team when he and his mates were seen playing with airsoft guns at home and reported, I think he described it as something along the lines of after a brown trouser moment, having a laugh and a talk about airsoft with the ARV cops.

 

[fez]

Thats not what I said, i said that if all minority groups in the US had similar rates to white/hispanic groups then the ratios would be more comparable .

But its not. The white population has a rate thats 4x the UKs. The black community in the UK is also involved in more crime that the white and probably for some of the same reasons as the US and we aren't ignoring that are we?

As it is you have one group who far exceed the number and increase the ratio so significantly that it completely skews the numbers to an extent where it looks like the US has a huge gun problem.

It does have a gun problem but only due to a minority not the majority who seem to be able to control those twitchy trigger fingers pretty well.

So you consider a homicide rate that is multiples of our rate (even amoungst just the white people) not so bad and not a problem.

And you also consider the fact that in a country with a huge racial divide and rich/poor divivde, giving people easy access to guns isn't a bad thing.

Simple question. Do you think that the homicide rate would stay at a similar number if you took away all the guns in the US tomorrow. I think it would plummet.