The American Police

fez said:
My point was that minorities and non whites do not equal crimes. Even scaled up we would have nowhere near the homicide rate of the US. There are no credible studies that show increased gun ownership leads to decreased crime or decreased homicides.



Poor doesn't equal crime in all cases. A lot of the poor whites in the US are in the southern states which is rural and completely different to high density poverty in slums. All these figures are per 100k as well so regardless of whether america has more poor white people than us, that won't change the ratios. If you had 10m in the US vs 1m in the UK you would still work it out based on "per 100k people".

Do you genuinely believe that guns are not a significant contributing factor to Americas high homicide rate vs other similar, stable countries.
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Guns increase the number of homicides, however, certain groups seem to massively overinflate the numbers.

The vast majority of people I.e 87% of the population seem to be able to handle them just fine to a point where you could say that guns don't kill people, but some people do.
 
ianh said:
True but even now you can legally buy an AR15-style rifle in the UK if you wanted to and had the correct license.
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I know, but as you've acknowledged that wasn't my point and it's not an option available to anyone who wants one for self or home defence either. :)

deuse said:
People have said here that it falls under the same law.
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CS spray being incorporated into the Firearms Act does not mean the police call it a "gun". The legislation is quite specific about what it covers which is why I linked to it earlier. It's part of the Firearms Act because that's where it fits best.
 
deuse said:
Can't you remember what you said\posted?

"No the UK way is that almost no one comes at you with a gun because almost no one has one. The chances of someone in the UK ever seeing a gun outside of a legal firearm is tiny."

There you go.
So again(third time) what is tiny?
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I have literally answered that a few posts ago. Strangely enough, in a country that doesn't have many guns and most people never even consider guns, we don't have accurate figures for "how many illegal firearms have you seen in the past year" statistics.

Tiny is quite obvious. We don't have guns. Unless you are rural or in a really bad part of cities you probably never see guns legal or otherwise. I lived in the country and we had a range close to us for clay pigeon shooting. Outside of that I have never seen a handgun in person apart from on armed police. I have lived in London for years and never saw a gun on anyone but the police.

If you are struggling to imagine it, imagine that no one you knew had any personal firearms unless they hunted (which isn't common in the UK) and that your police didn't carry guns and your criminals didn't have guns. Thats pretty much what its like in the UK.
 
fez said:
I have literally answered that a few posts ago. Strangely enough, in a country that doesn't have many guns and most people never even consider guns, we don't have accurate figures for "how many illegal firearms have you seen in the past year" statistics.

Tiny is quite obvious. We don't have guns. Unless you are rural or in a really bad part of cities you probably never see guns legal or otherwise. I lived in the country and we had a range close to us for clay pigeon shooting. Outside of that I have never seen a handgun in person apart from on armed police. I have lived in London for years and never saw a gun on anyone but the police.

If you are struggling to imagine it, imagine that no one you knew had any personal firearms unless they hunted (which isn't common in the UK) and that your police didn't carry guns and your criminals didn't have guns. Thats pretty much what its like in the UK.
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You're talking out your bum.

I know a few in the UK that have guns.
And no, they aren't farmers.

There's 3 gun clubs just by me.
 
The Running Man said:
Guns increase the number of homicides, however, certain groups seem to massively overinflate the numbers.

The vast majority of people I.e 87% of the population seem to be able to handle them just fine to a point where you could say that guns don't kill people, but some people do.
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Its not the wild west over there and I haven't heard anyone suggest otherwise. There is just no need for it. Its a hangover from a different time. Guns have no purpose but to kill. I would happily ban anything in the UK that has no purpose other than to kill other humans. If the only use for knives was stabbing people I would make them illegal. Hell, you already have to have a good reason for carrying a knife outside of your home.

13% is about 1 in 8. Is that genuinely the number of people involved in gun related incidents each year. That can't be right.
 
deuse said:
You're talking out your bum.

I know a few in the UK that have guns.
And no, they aren't farmers.

There's 3 gun clubs just by me.
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I know people with guns too... for recreational shooting. They are not carrying them down the local pub or walking the streets with them for their own protection. They don't consider them a defensive weapon in case their home is robbed.

You clearly don't believe that the UK isn't full of guns no matter what anyone tells you.
 
fez said:
I know people with guns too... for recreational shooting. They are not carrying them down the local pub or walking the streets with them for their own protection. They don't consider them a defensive weapon in case their home is robbed.

You clearly don't believe that the UK isn't full of guns no matter what anyone tells you.
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And even in European countries where you can own guns and the laws are more relaxed, gun crime is quite low.

Probably because there is some sense to the laws and who can own one. Even Russia has quite strict gun laws. Also guns aren't part of any European culture so people don't tend to get off on them.
 
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The Running Man said:
Given the size of the NRA and the population of the US if this were true, there would be huge numbers of fatal killings every day.

You just have to accept the numbers I'm afraid even if they don't represent what you would like to believe.
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The numbers are real. The rate in USA is 60 times that of UK.
I suggest that you accept the numbers.
 
ianh said:
Slightly incorrect, you CAN own semi-automatic firearms ...
Semi-Auto firearms - https://www.mcavoyguns.co.uk/contents/en-uk/d106_Ruger_10_22_rimfire_rifles.html
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Semi-automatic rifles chambered for the puny .22 rimfire cartridge are the ONLY semi-auto rifle you can legally own in the UK.

The government is now making lever release rifles chambered for 9mm, .223, .308 and .45 ACP, along with VZ58 Manually Actuated Release System rifles chambered for 5.56 x 45mm and 7.62 x 39mm illegal too. So even the lobotomised semi-auto rifles are going!

See page 23 of this document: Offensive Weapons Act 2019 surrender and compensation scheme guidance (publishing.service.gov.uk)

ianh said:
True but even now you can legally buy an AR15-style rifle in the UK if you wanted to and had the correct license. Here's a few for sale, mostly around £1500-ish -

https://www.gunstar.co.uk/bushmaster-xm15-e2s-straight-pull-223-rifles/rifles/1303942
https://www.gunstar.co.uk/schmeisser-bull-barrel-target-straight-pull-223-rifles/rifles/1287382
https://www.gunstar.co.uk/aero-prec...hard-case-2-x-30-r-magazines-m/rifles/1267836
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They may be AR15-style, but those are all straight pull bolt-action rifles. They are chambered for .223, but do not possess the rate of fire or ease of usage of a semi-automatic AR15, just the scary looks.
 
dowie said:
bunch of complete numpties tbh...

they don't have the same level of training as UK police and threshold to use lethal force, or force in general, is far lower over there/life not valued as much etc..
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You think the UK police are any different? They really aren't. Plenty of times the UK police have shot the wrong person.

I think in that situation they had to take the shot.

The problem with police is once someone fires, they all empty their magazines. Why is this necessary? If they could use their damn guns right then only one shot would be necessary. And it's right that the police are not very good at disarming situations. They tend to rely on aggression to disarm situations which presents almost a challenge to some people. You can see right from the start it's going to go bad. I think they really want to stamp their control on the situation, which of course inevitably leads to someone getting shot.
 
deuse said:
You do know that legally buy an AR15-style rifle in the UK?

£1,400 I think they are

Beaten to it.
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99.9% can't own/possess/fire one.

Otherwise they would. The only thing that stops your average law abiding person from possessing guns here in the UK is that it's not legal for your average law abiding person to own one. They simply wouldn't be issued a license, or even have grounds to apply for one.

What's the ownership criteria in the US? It's nowhere near as restrictive, and even having a diagnosed mental health issue doesn't stop you walking into a shop and buying a gun, last I heard...
 
deuse said:
You're talking out your bum.

I know a few in the UK that have guns.
And no, they aren't farmers.

There's 3 gun clubs just by me.
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Yes but the rules surround them are very strict and if you break a rule it's a mandatory prison sentence.
 
FoxEye said:
99.9% can't own/possess/fire one.

Otherwise they would. The only thing that stops your average law abiding person from possessing guns here in the UK is that it's not legal for your average law abiding person to own one. They simply wouldn't be issued a license, or even have grounds to apply for one.
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Actually isn't that hard to get the relevant part on the license for a .223 straight pull AR-15 "style" rifle in the UK - semi-automatic another matter and practically no one would have a justifiable reason. If it wasn't for the 2 closest rifle ranges to me have closed and the next nearest appropriate one is ~50 miles away I'd probably have gone for it.

FoxEye said:
What's the ownership criteria in the US? It's nowhere near as restrictive, and even having a diagnosed mental health issue doesn't stop you walking into a shop and buying a gun, last I heard...
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Yeah it is one of the things I find frustrating about the US - just some simple common sense tweaks would see gun related incidents plummet.

Having spent a little bit of time in the US though - the mentality of the average gun owner in the US is completely alien to the understanding of a lot of the posters in these kind of threads here - for the most part they really have a very different perspective to what people think - though there are some nutters.
 
pp111 said:
You think the UK police are any different?
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Yes! Obviously, for the reasons given in the nearly 2 year old post you quoted!

They really aren't. Plenty of times the UK police have shot the wrong person.
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That's a really naff argument and doesn't stand up to scrutiny, yes sometimes the UK police have made mistakes, no they're generally not as bad as the US officers in the video footage there. We have better-trained police in general than most US forces and our armed officers have much higher standards on top of that.

The problem with police is once someone fires, they all empty their magazines. Why is this necessary?
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It isn't always and AFAIK in the UK that doesn't necessarily happen.
 
dowie said:
Yes! Obviously, for the reasons given in the nearly 2 year old post you quoted!



That's a really naff argument and doesn't stand up to scrutiny, yes sometimes the UK police have made mistakes, no they're generally not as bad as the US officers in the video footage there. We have better-trained police in general than most US forces and our armed officers have much higher standards on top of that.



It isn't always and AFAIK in the UK that doesn't necessarily happen.
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Completely disagree. The only difference is that most of the officers in the UK aren't armed with guns. If they were, they would be making the same mistakes and killing a proportionate amount of people.
 
I can't recall any incidents regarding UK police having to litteraly riddle someone with bullets the way US police tend to. Not saying it's never happened at all but they tend to be a lot more professional when it comes to discharging a firearm.
 
pp111 said:
Completely disagree. The only difference is that most of the officers in the UK aren't armed with guns. If they were, they would be making the same mistakes and killing a proportionate amount of people.
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Not at all, as almost every other comparable country with routinely armed police services demonstrates the US very much stands on its own in this regard. You've also already stated one key difference between US and UK firearms tactics yourself:

pp111 said:
The problem with police is once someone fires, they all empty their magazines.
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This is a commonly-practised tactic in the US for various reasons, but elsewhere officers tend to be taught to re-assess after every round or two fired.
 
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