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Fixed.
The Banter Thread
- Thread starter CliffyBiro
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Don
Allllllllllllllllllso, I'd say Ronaldo has been better than Messi this season
Don
Not really. Since Christmas I guess Messi has really turned it on, I suppose he has a much better squad around him than Ronaldo.
I just see a massive chasm between the two which is based entirely around football intelligence and understanding their role as 1 of 11. I honestly think Ronaldo will struggle with that his entire career, whereas Messi has been brought up with that at the forefront of his game, it just so happens he can literally do everything else too. For me you cannot replace football understanding, something which will mean Messi/Iniesta/Xavi are always going to be better, as shown by the Balon D'or votes, the whole world knows it, especially when you see Ronaldo pick the ball up 10 times a game and smash a ridiculously stupid shot over the bar/give the ball away needlessly, or when you watch him vs Barca, where he was utterly laughable
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Have you watched either play much?
Last time I saw Messi against your lot he kept trying to beat the defence on his own and losing his team the ball, whereas in the other European match with Real and Lyon I noticed Ronaldo actually hanging back and setting up players ahead of him and rarely trying to do something on his own. Most of his shots were from free kicks and well, two of them hit the bar and were unfortunate to stay out.
I'm not saying Messi is **** or selfish, but to say he's some epitome of selfless play and Ronaldo is the opposite is a stupid cliché not really based on reality.
Don
To be fair though Messi has double the assists Ronaldo has
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As mentioned before, Ronaldo has less around him and especially finishers in front (out-of-form Benzema and Adebayor).
And having 15 assists in a better team to 8 doesn't really constitute a 'massive chasm' in footballing intelligence and selfishness for Ronaldo now, does it?
Don
The question is, is Messi selfish or not as you seem to be contradicting yourself somewhat in your other post.
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That argument doesn't always make much difference though (in terms of individual stats).
Often in situations where you've got 1 player of a higher level than the rest of the side, the best way forward is to build the side around that player and play to his strengths. As a result he's going to be involved in a higher % of goals. I don't think you could argue that at Real or in his last 2 seasons at Utd, the team has been built to get the best out of Ronaldo (and rightly so).
Because Barca are both better as a whole and as individuals, they don't build a side around an individual. For the past 6-7 years, they've had the same system and style of play and the players fit into that.
How often have we seen strikers at smaller clubs score goals for fun and when they've moved to bigger clubs (from within the same league), they've not replicated their goalscoring record?
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The argument was that there was a 'massive chasm' between the two players in terms of teamworking and footballing intelligence. I think it's a fair contributory point to make between the assists of the two, and even without it Ronaldo still having 8 compared to 15 or so does not in any imagination constitute him being completely selfish or tactically retarded.
Um, no Baz.
I know it's accepted practice your side of the Mersey poverty line to build teams around players (
), but we had other world class players in the squad during Ronaldo's tenure. I don't really see how giving him license to roam out of posession with Rooney going back to press (which he's good at) or similar is 'building the team around him'...Wouldn't that play into the reasoning that the syle of Real, rather than the 'innate selfishness' of Ronaldo, is more to fault for Ronaldo's slightly lower assist tally?
True enough, but isn't Ronaldo scoring for fun in La Liga with a team of stars around him again?
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I was simply responding to your point that 1 of the reasons why Messi's stats are better were because he has better players around him. Quite often you see players get better stats when they're playing in a team with lesser players.
Um, no Baz.
I know it's accepted practice your side of the Mersey poverty line to build teams around players (
I didn't say Utd didn't have other world class players
What I am saying is that in his last 2 seasons, it wasn't unusual to see other players to be played slighty out of position in order to get the best out of Ronaldo. It's also fair to say that the way Utd played when Van Nistelrooy was your main attacking threat was different to the way you played when Ronaldo was at his peak and that was different to the way you played last season when Rooney took over.
I should have made it clear that is not a criticism as I knew you or another Manc would get upset with that. The same could be said for near enough every other club on the planet but not Barca. Barca have had the same system and style of play for at least the past 7 years.
As above, I wasn't getting involved in the selfishness debate.
Yes. I was using an extreme example to prove a point. And seeing as Ronaldo hasn't moved from a lesser club to a bigger club from within the same league, I'm not sure why you're asking.
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The stat invoked (not by me) was assists, and one would think that this is a department where the quality of your teammates is a contributing factor, especially as the original subject was the ability to work as a team and build play.
My point was that if Ronaldo was good, but not so over-the-top excellent compared to our other players that we had to do a Chevchenko/Milan dance (which I would consider to be 'building a team around a player') while he was here.I didn't say Utd didn't have other world class players
What I am saying is that in his last 2 seasons, it wasn't unusual to see other players to be played slighty out of position in order to get the best out of Ronaldo. It's also fair to say that the way Utd played when Van Nistelrooy was your main attacking threat was different to the way you played when Ronaldo was at his peak and that was different to the way you played last season when Rooney took over.
I should have made it clear that is not a criticism as I knew you or another Manc would get upset with that. The same could be said for near enough every other club on the planet but not Barca. Barca have had the same system and style of play for at least the past 7 years.
To be honest your subsequent paragraph reads more as a description of a target man rather than a team 'built around a player'. I don't really deny that, but we probably have different definitions of the latter term.
Not really sure of the relevance to what I said then, unless you speaking generally in which case I misunderstood but maybe you should've made it clearer.
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Joke of the day:
Carrick signs new 3 year deal til 2014.
Carrick signs new 3 year deal til 2014.
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New thread time.
Of course the quality of you teammates will effect how many assists (and goals) you'll get. The point I'm making is that if you're in a team where you're the main focal point in attack, you're more likely to be involved in a higher % of the teams' goals, whether that be scoring or assisting.
There are varying degrees of building a team around a player, a better term would have been focal point. Again, it's not a criticism however at Real and in his last 2 years with Utd, I can't think of a game where Ronaldo was restricted in order to accomendate another player. It just so happens that over the past 4 seasons (Utd and Real), what has been best for the team was to play to Ronaldo's strengths.
Yes, I was speaking generally. It was an extreme example to explain why players don't always score, create or even play better in better teams.
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