Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (June Poll)

[Felon]

The way Farage explains things is insane and confusing, he just said.

We don't send £350M a day, we send a lot more,

We send £55M a day, which is £20B (£386M a week)

He then says, of that £55M a day, £21M a day we get back, (presumably via the pre-calculated up front discount and other stuff added together)

So we actually send £34M a day, which is £12.4Bn (£238M a week)

Soooooooo what's written on the bus is wrong Nigel

 

[Mynight]

The way Farage explains things is insane and confusing, he just said.

We don't send £350M a day, we send a lot more,

We send £55M a day, which is £20B (£386M a week)

He then says, of that £55M a day, £21M a day we get back, (presumably via the pre-calculated up front discount and other stuff added together)

So we actually send £34M a day, which is £12.4Bn (£238M a week)

Soooooooo what's written on the bus is wrong Nigel

I guess it depends on if we actually send it as a lump sum before it gets divided up and the allocated amount returned. If so the bus figure is correct technically. I dont know where the extra "we send a lot more" bit came from.



I think QT has just summed up this entire vote "Yes it does" "No it doesnt" " yes it does" and repeat.

 

[Caged]

Oh man, I CANNOT believe a ton of people want to leave the EU, its past the point of just being polite now, when people are that stupid there is nothing left to do but shout louder - but then this does nothing as well.

We leave the EU, we are over.

https://medium.com/@williamgadsbypeet/project-fear-is-a-fitting-name-you-should-be-****ing-terrified-5c93f1b5ef2f#.chqwr7mk6

MODS ^^^ the filter wont let me link this great blog that explains everything anyone needs to know to be honest.

I am in complete agreement with his opinions on a left-wing viewpoint (see his first comment reply). The EU is not a great friend to a left-winger, but you can't ignore the climate that we'd be exiting into. I think it's entirely wrong to claim that as the EU is a neoliberal capitalist entity that handing the country over to the right wing of the Tory party would be a win for the left.

 

[Felon]

I guess it depends on if we actually send it as a lump sum before it gets divided up and the allocated amount returned. If so the bus figure is correct technically. I dont know where the extra "we send a lot more" bit came from.



I think QT has just summed up this entire vote "Yes it does" "No it doesnt" " yes it does" and repeat.

According to the government document a page or two back, the rebate (which forms the bulk of the discount) is pre-calculated based off the previous years figures, so it's deducted before we make the payment, which is why it's written quite plainly on fullfact that the money never leaves the country.

Where the £350M holds sway, is that on paper it's the full size of the liability ie - the total amount of "duty" before any payments or discounts, so it is a correct figure - however it's never ever been paid since Thatcher negotiated the discount in the 1980s, there's also no evidence that the total figure will ever be paid.

 

[Locky]

The way Farage explains things is insane and confusing, he just said.

We don't send £350M a day, we send a lot more,

We send £55M a day, which is £20B (£386M a week)

He then says, of that £55M a day, £21M a day we get back, (presumably via the pre-calculated up front discount and other stuff added together)

So we actually send £34M a day, which is £12.4Bn (£238M a week)

Soooooooo what's written on the bus is wrong Nigel

Wrong. He used the words gross and net. Know the difference.

 

[Mynight]

According to the government document a page or two back, the rebate (which forms the bulk of the discount) is pre-calculated based off the previous years figures, so it's deducted before we make the payment.

Where the £350M holds sway, is that on paper it's the full size of the liability ie - the total amount of "duty" before any payments or discounts, so it is a correct figure - however it's never ever been paid since Thatcher negotiated it in the 80s, there's also no evidence that it will ever be paid.

Ahh in which case the bus advert is ******** in both aspects. Simples really.

Why not just run with the £238m figure. Least such an argument wouldn't rear its head and it's still an impressive figure.

Must admit I wasn't giving it my full attention just in the background whilst I work I may have missed something obvious.

 

[Mr Jack]

So, all you Remainers, how do you think the debate went tonight?

I haven't watched it. I was at my local constituency Labour party AGM - and let me tell you it was an utterly thrilling affair - and then in the pub. I want to watch because I feel obliged but judging by reactions online it was a pretty unedifying affair. General opinion seems to be less one sided than here (big surprise) but the media is spinning this as everyone launching personal attacks on Boris and, frankly, I don't have much desire to watch that.

 

[Traffic_Warden]

A complete embarrassment.

Never listened to so much utter rubbish coming out of someone's mouth, never wanting to give Farage a chance to speak.

Think the Leave side kept the debate in a positive manner, whereas as per usual in these debates we are yet to hear a positive comment regarding staying in the EU. It's about time the got Cameron/Osbourne - Farage/Gove/Boris in a debate.

Roll on 23rd it's getting tiring now.

Farages repsonse to the '350million a week', from what I can take from it yes that figure is correct and is the gross figure. Just like when you go for a job you have a gross figure shown. It's pretty simple isn't it?

 

[Uther]

Labour MP John Mann has come out for the Brexit camp
''In an open letter, the politician said too few Labour MPs were in favour of Brexit - and warned the party is "going to get a big shock across the country" when referendum votes are counted.''
http://news.sky.com/story/1709714/labour-mp-john-mann-comes-out-for-brexit

 

[Caged]

How unlike John Mann to jump on a bandwagon and attempt to capitalise on it.

 

[Caged]

Farages repsonse to the '350million a week', from what I can take from it yes that figure is correct and is the gross figure. Just like when you go for a job you have a gross figure shown. It's pretty simple isn't it?

The analogy doesn't fit brilliantly but it would be more like being quoted a salary figure for a job and then finding out that it actually was the total amount including what they calculate the benefits to be worth.

Leave are clearly quoting £350m as a figure to be saved by not being in the EU, there is no mathematical way to make that claim true.

 

[Felon]

Wrong. He used the words gross and net. Know the difference.

Well, what he said was totally correct, the figures he quoted add up, it was the very sly way in which he "pushed under the carpet" the fact that we don't pay £350M at all and never ever have done, all things considered it works out at around £270M up front, then we get back about another £110M in other subsidies, rebates, benefits, etc, so all in we pay around £160M a week.

Leave are clearly quoting £350m as a figure to be saved by not being in the EU, there is no mathematical way to make that claim true.

Precisely, it's pretty simple I guess - if you throw out the technical discussion about the exact mechanics of how the money changes hands and look at the proposed saving - in total it looks as though we'd save around £160M a week, not £350M, once all things are considered. Hence the claim "We'd save £350M a week that we could spend on hospitals" doesn't stand up and is misleading.

 

[Mr Jack]

Farages repsonse to the '350million a week', from what I can take from it yes that figure is correct and is the gross figure. Just like when you go for a job you have a gross figure shown. It's pretty simple isn't it?

Not really. It's like rocking up having paid £75 for a chair at 25% off and saying you really paid £100 for it even though those extra £25 stayed in your pocket the whole time. The true gross figure is about £250m; after which we get some back making the net figure far lower.

Saying we pay the EU £350m is a lie; we do not pay that money into the EU. It never leaves the country, it is never paid, there is no payment that adds up to £350m.

 

[Caged]

Honestly with the way that modern campaigns are being run we need a rapid-response version of the ASA to fine and stamp out inaccurate claims. Very hard to do without attracting claims of bias, though.

It's more than irritating to see BORIS THE LEDGE writing absolute crap in the usual publications with seemingly no consequences.

 

[Tosno]

Not really. It's like rocking up having paid £75 for a chair at 25% off and saying you really paid £100 for it even though those extra £25 stayed in your pocket the whole time.

Not really. It's like rocking up having paid £75 for a chair and getting back a £25 amazon voucher.

 

[Caged]

The rebate is money that never gets paid, it's not the grant payments.

 

[Woden]

Not really. It's like rocking up having paid £75 for a chair and getting back a £25 amazon voucher.

That's not how the rebate works. It's not a rebate really, it's a discount. We don't send the EU £350m, and the EU have no say in washer we do with the "rebated" money at never gave them in the first place.

 

[Felon]

Not really. It's like rocking up having paid £75 for a chair and getting back a £25 amazon voucher.

If you match this chair thing with the scenario, I think it looks like this:

Total cost of chair = £100

Customer has a furniture loyalty card that gives them an up-front 25% off,

Total cost of chair = £75

Customer also has loyalty points to spend, based on the amount of business they did with the shop the year before, those points add up to 10%

Customer sends off for the loyalty reward and bags a £10 amazon voucher.

 

[poosemon]

In my view, the use of the £350 million figure is wrong as it is mis-leading.

Whilst the pre-rebate figure maybe £350 million surely the end result should be the figure been quoted. As it was put on QT, if one person gives someone £100, and then gets a £25 rebate before the £100 has actually been handed over. Has he given £100 or £75. If looking at an end result then surely you would say it was £75.

I have watched both the debate and QT today. What we need for those who are undecided or can be swayed is a clean stating the facts version of both Stay vs Go because at the moment it is just a battle to see who shouts loudest. I put myself in the remain camp and i have no plans to change this. However, Eddie Izzard was terrible on the show tonight, fair enough have a pop at farage, however in this situation dragging that over the whole programme and over speaking him was of no benefit.. Also, the showing on the ITV debate also did the remain camp no favours. Constant attacks on Borris as opposed to the leave campaign.

 

[Felon]

There was an interesting talk on Radio 4 this morning talking about possible complications if the result of the vote is very close, 49%/51% or whatever, it could get into a pretty nasty state of affairs with one side taking legal action over the other, based on any element of the campaign that may have been problematic.

I can see things like this £350M on the bus being a real problem, according to all the facts (and the treasuries own figures) it's incorrect so how many other aspects of the campaign are incorrect? what happens if other things come out afterwards, and it turns out that the public were misled - will we just say "oh, tough we've had the vote" or will people be held accountable?

For example:

https://www.statisticsauthority.gov...stics-on-contributions-to-the-european-union/

Given the high level of public interest in the European Union referendum debate, it is vital that official statistics are used accurately, with important caveats and limitations explained.

The UK Statistics Authority is disappointed to note that there continue to be suggestions that the UK contributes £350 million to the EU each week, and that this full amount could be spent elsewhere (see Annex A).

As we have made clear, the UK’s contribution to the EU is paid after the application of the rebate. We have also pointed out that there are payments received by the UK public and private sectors that are relevant here. The continued use of a gross figure in contexts that imply it is a net figure is misleading and undermines trust in official statistics.

Bearing in mind that the statistics authority, is the authority with the facts - and they're saying the £350M claim is incorrect, why is that bus still driving around?