Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (June Poll)

[Chris Wilson]

I should have encased gift in inverted commas, I will try and edit it.

 

[PlacidCasual]

The West's "gift" of democracy to Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan hasn't really been that well received, has it?

I agree but the problem is politicians and NGO's equate only Universal Suffrage with democracy and jump straight to demanding the outcome of building freedom without having worked on the foundations.

Our own democracy started with rights for the landed gentry (Magna Carta), the then rule of law, rights of free association followed, Parliaments of representatives (on limited suffrage), contraint on the power of the King absolute (Civil War), a second revolution (Bill of Rights, Hanoverian rule), the reform acts, the parliament acts and then Universal Suffrage.

The rights to free trial and property came long before the vote. Limited suffrage spread the power in a way that each evolution that came was quickly accepted.

We have tried and failed to circuvent that entire learning experience in several countries now, it's no wonder in failed. We should be encouraging despots to apply the rule of law and fair trial and slowly extend suffrage as local culture will tolerate and not try and turn Afghanistan into Sweden overnight.

 

[Chris Wilson]

Or we could butt out and leave the status quo accepting that in tribal regions a dictatorship is often the way to relative peace, and concentrate on not letting our own democracy slowly slip into tribalism?

 

[Skunkworks]

I agree with Zethor.

I know, I feel like I need a shower now.

 

[Tefal]

I was using a shorthand of the EU to get over the argument. The individual countries heads meeting together(better?) are faced with giving a favourable deal to the UK which will disadvantage their individual countries. What do you think the individual Govts will do? Roll over? They would not be able to sell it to their own people/parliaments. The best the UK can hope for is a Norway - all of the things they don't want with no say.
France was told it could not sell a ship and Eastern European countries could not sell dairy and fruit to Russia for example. What makes this so different.
Merkel would as she would be faced with instability as other EUU countries queue up for a UK style deal.

As you say

How does the EU deal with korea that grants them 98% tarrif free trade disadvantage the EU countries?


Why would such a deal woth the uk disadvantage the eu countries?

 

[MookJong]

After swaying from leave to back to the centre I have been back over the pro's and cons and it seems the actual sticking point is the border issue.

It seems I have to forfeit all of the positive aspects of the EU just to control our countries borders again. My feeling is that Britain is attractive and getting more attractive as minimum wage goes up. Am I willing to accept the strain immigration will put on this country to get the benefits the EU offers?

To leave is a cut off your nose to spite your face situation. But I think the idea anyone can come here even if they have no job or accommodation lined up is insanity. Fix that one aspect and I would be happy to remain.

Still have 10 days to decide...

 

[eatcustard]

The UK will make a deal the the EU as we both need each other, as long as it does not allow free movement, I dont care how they get to it.

 

[bam0]

The UK will make a deal the the EU as we both need each other, as long as it does not allow free movement, I dont care how they get to it.

The four fundamental freedoms of the EU are the free movement of goods, capital, services and people. It's going to be a very hard sell to get the kind of deal we need with one of those excluded.

 

[Skunkworks]

Nobody big enough has stood up to them so far.

 

[Six6siX]

My god, the sense of self importance is beyond belief.

 

[sityeuropa]

The four fundamental freedoms of the EU are the free movement of goods, capital, services and people. It's going to be a very hard sell to get the kind of deal we need with one of those excluded.

Canada's proposed trade deal does not include the free movement of people.

The UK is economically bigger than Canada. So there is no reason why we couldn't.

 

[Chris Wilson]

My god, the sense of self importance is beyond belief.

Is this sense of negativity and belittling of one's own country something imbibed in student union bars these days?

 

[Skunkworks]

Yes, it's very "right-on" at the moment.

 

[Six6siX]

Is this sense of negativity and belittling of one's own country something imbibed in student union bars these days?

Wouldn't know, I'm more a traditional pub kinda guy but I do know some students I can ask if you like?

 

[scorza]

The four fundamental freedoms of the EU are the free movement of goods, capital, services and people. It's going to be a very hard sell to get the kind of deal we need with one of those excluded.

If you don't ask, you don't get.

 

[bam0]

Canada's proposed trade deal does not include the free movement of people.

The UK is economically bigger than Canada. So there is no reason why we couldn't.

The Canada deal doesn't include services and still has tariffs on some items.

 

[scorza]

The Canada deal doesn't include services and still has tariffs on some items.

The EU's single market doesn't include services.

 

[bam0]

The EU's single market doesn't include services.

We've been through this before, yes it does, they may not have gotten as far with it as they'd like, but to say it doesn't include services is just wrong.

 

[do_ron_ron]

The West's "gift" of democracy to Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan hasn't really been that well received, has it?

And is one of the causes of the flow of refugees.

 

[Freakbro]

The EU's single market doesn't include services.

We've been through this, yes it does, with the obvious caveats where certain services aren't universally interchangeable