Soldato
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Democracy not big among you lot is it.
Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (June Poll)
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I believe Corbyn sees the EU as a right-leaning neoliberal entity (reflecting the member states to a degree) that he would normally be against, but believes staying in is better on balance.
The vote isn't between stay in, or leave into a socialist utopia of a UK.
You can live in a democracy without having input on every single government decision - which makes the government pointless.
Using direct democracy to screw things up isn't better than electing representatives that (hopefully) know what they are doing simply because it's 'fairer'.
I had a lot of respect for him as a man of principles (while not necessarily agreeing with some of his ideas) but I get the feeling he's been nobbled.
Either that or he thinks he there is no chance of a Labour government anytime soon.
Soldato
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If we vote to leave, by lets say 51/49, do you think there will be further votes on what our future relationship with Europe should be, or will the government then decide enough is enough and make up their on gubbins, like Blair and Brown did by signing whatever they like the look of, without directly consulating the public?
Soldato
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I thought he was an unelectable anachronism, but I respected him sticking to his principles. Now I still feel he’s unelectable, but also a sell-out.
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If it were Remain, they'd take it and start talking about 'moving forward'. So I hope they have the good grace to do the same if the vote is to leave. But I won't hold my breath.
But come on you know if he wasn't the leader he would be voting to leave the EU.
This is the problem as his heart isn't in it. He should just change camps, you never know being honest with himself and the public may gain more Labour support.
Its probably a bit of both. Ditto on the respect for him being a man of principles .
He'd be voting to leave if the UK seemed open to the idea of left-of-centre politics, but as that's not the case I believe his reasons for his current position.
And yet you call what we have here in the UK a democracy? I'd rather be in the EU where we can vote out MEPs, We can put pressure to remove commissioners (Each is accountable to the government of the country), the MEPs are elected by a PR system, no gerrymandering of seats. And powers diffuse enough that no individual can come and buy out the government, unlike here with Murdoch (By his own admission).
Labour seem to be swinging from Tory-Lite to Loony Left, though. Centre left government could be good for an independent UK IMO but that's not on offer. Dump all the champagne socialists and jettison the crazies and Labour might have a chance.
There's no value in a Tory-lite Labour to me though. It makes them almost indistinguishable at election time and then the Tories just need to start talking about economic competence (how's our currency looking now) and they're in power for as long as it takes for them to have a meltdown.
I don't have any delusions that the UK would elect a more socialist government though, everybody is too busy being angry at other people.
Yes. So... how many times have you seen him in person, and listened to him talk? I'm going to go ahead and assume the answer to that question is zero. The arrogance of the Leave camp who think they know Corbyn's mind better than his stated opinion yet haven't paid a blind bit of attention to what he's actually said is astonishing.
On that I agree. PR is far more democratic system than FPP where the 65% of the votes do not count.
To put into perspective, the Tories formed a majority goverment (50.8% of the MPs) with 36.8% of the vote.
Scotish Nationalists with 4.7% of the vote, got 56 MPs,
Liberals 7.9%, 8 MPs
Dem Unionists, 0.6%, 8 MPs
Sin Fein 0.6%, 4 MPs
Plaid Cymru, 0.6%, 3 MPs
Ulster Unionists 0.4% 2 MPs,
UKIP 12.7% of the votes, 1 MP.
If that is the democracy, which give us the moral upper hand, and self righteousness to criticize China, or bomb foreign countries to "make them democratic", then maybe we deserve to lose the next WW.
I was getting at the idea that Labour haven't been centre left for a long time.
Agreed that we are now an inherently selfish society so even if it was on offer, I don't have much faith that people would vote for a socially compassionate but economically pragmatic political party, should it appear.
Anyhow, this referendum is bigger than left/right. Lots of people are voting for entirely the wrong reasons but I do hope we leave and that the government are utterly terrified of an electorate that has shown exactly who is in charge.
Hopefully we get STV on the agenda next.
Lets just ignore the fact that a Maltese citizen has 10 times the representation in the European parliament compared to a UK citizen.
Yes I know its aims are to be degressively proportional to the population of the member states but
a) that is hardly fair or just, and
b) If your Germany the degressively proportional part doesnt apply to you to the same degree
Surely in a democracy everyone's vote should count the same/be equally weighted.
Yes I know our constituencies aren't equally weighted but the apportionment in the EU parliament is over an order of magnitude more varied.
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Just read this as it popped up again
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/12/theresa-may-surveillance-investigatory-powers-bill-national-security
I've mentioned it before in the context of surveillance and IT related policies but in a more general sense, the EU seems to provide some sort of reasoned voice when issues like this are raised - in many different areas.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/11/european-court-to-consider-legality-of-uk-surveillance-laws
Are we really happy to let our government run unchecked with things like this? In the midst of sorting out the changes to the economy and other such issues in a post exit UK what else is going to get slipped in unnoticed?
Whilst my primary concern with a leave vote is to do with the stability of the economy and the multitude of factors that people haven't considered in taking that stance, I genuinely worry about our freedoms in this current world if our government is left to its own devices without outside influence to keep it in check.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/12/theresa-may-surveillance-investigatory-powers-bill-national-security
I've mentioned it before in the context of surveillance and IT related policies but in a more general sense, the EU seems to provide some sort of reasoned voice when issues like this are raised - in many different areas.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/11/european-court-to-consider-legality-of-uk-surveillance-laws
Are we really happy to let our government run unchecked with things like this? In the midst of sorting out the changes to the economy and other such issues in a post exit UK what else is going to get slipped in unnoticed?
Whilst my primary concern with a leave vote is to do with the stability of the economy and the multitude of factors that people haven't considered in taking that stance, I genuinely worry about our freedoms in this current world if our government is left to its own devices without outside influence to keep it in check.
Soldato
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Grow up and put the Che Guevara t-shirt away.
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