Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (June Poll)

[Mr Jack]

Democracy not big among you lot is it.

The EU is the most democratic international organisation on the face of the planet. How many representatives do you elect to NATO? The IMF? The WTO? Oh, yes, that would be none, wouldn't it?

Is the EU perfectly democratic? No, it isn't, but to make it perfectly democratic you'd have to override the sovereignty of the nations who make it up, and I don't think you want that either, do you? And, as much as the EU is undemocratic, so is the UK. IIRC correctly, more people vote for UKIP in the last election than voted for the SNP, yet UKIP have exactly one MP while the SNP have over fifty. The house of Lords is entirely unelected, yet contains members that absurdly bash the EU for being "undemocratic". What is it the Bible says? Oh yes*, "[a]nd why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

Also, there is this fantasy that the EU control Britain; it's complete nonsense. On every important issue - housing, taxation, benefits, education, etc. - the UK government has far more control than the EU. The EU, despite protestations, almost entirely concerns itself with matter of the single market. And on these minor issues, the EU does a fantastic job; it's on the major issues it fails but on these major issues it's failings can almost invariably be traced to the craptastic nature of the national governments. The treatment of Greece should be an embarrassment to the EU, but it wasn't "unelected bureaucrats" that decided that, it was nationally elected politicians and, in particular, Angela Merkel, who would much rather trash her own country's economy than show even a shred of solidarity with the Greek people.


* - by the power of Google, I invoke ye!

 

[Caged]

I was getting at the idea that Labour haven't been centre left for a long time.

Agreed that we are now an inherently selfish society so even if it was on offer, I don't have much faith that people would vote for a socially compassionate but economically pragmatic political party, should it appear.

Anyhow, this referendum is bigger than left/right. Lots of people are voting for entirely the wrong reasons but I do hope we leave and that the government are utterly terrified of an electorate that has shown exactly who is in charge.

Hopefully we get STV on the agenda next.

Oh right, I think my definition of centre left is your definition of loony left.

I'll take a more representative parliament, an elected second chamber and no more referendums if we're writing political christmas lists.

 

[Panos]

The EU is the most democratic international organisation on the face of the planet. How many representatives do you elect to NATO? The IMF? The WTO? Oh, yes, that would be none, wouldn't it?

Is the EU perfectly democratic? No, it isn't, but to make it perfectly democratic you'd have to override the sovereignty of the nations who make it up, and I don't think you want that either, do you? And, as much as the EU is undemocratic, so is the UK. IIRC correctly, more people vote for UKIP in the last election than voted for the SNP, yet UKIP have exactly one MP while the SNP have over fifty. The house of Lords is entirely unelected, yet contains members that absurdly bash the EU for being "undemocratic". What is it the Bible says? Oh yes*, "[a]nd why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

Also, there is this fantasy that the EU control Britain; it's complete nonsense. On every important issue - housing, taxation, benefits, education, etc. - the UK government has far more control than the EU. The EU, despite protestations, almost entirely concerns itself with matter of the single market. And on these minor issues, the EU does a fantastic job; it's on the major issues it fails but on these major issues it's failings can almost invariably be traced to the craptastic nature of the national governments. The treatment of Greece should be an embarrassment to the EU, but it wasn't "unelected bureaucrats" that decided that, it was nationally elected politicians and, in particular, Angela Merkel, who would much rather trash her own country's economy than show even a shred of solidarity with the Greek people.


* - by the power of Google, I invoke ye!

EU is democratic, none says is not. However is NO party Democracy.
We have to democratise it more, if we want it to hold.

Is absurd to have the Commission asking the countries that do not want to accept refugees, €250K for each over their allocated quota, which was drawn by them, without further voting taking place in the EU Parliament.

 

[Tefal]

Korea is outside Europe physically, Britain is not. I also do not think any deal was made to the disadvantage of the EU. Large trading blocks like the US and the EU tend to get advantageous terms for themselves as they have the power.

Why does koreas physical location matter.

You just said any such deal would be a disadvantage to the Eu states if they mad eit with the uk.


The uk is pretty damn seperate from the EU when you think sbout it though the mainland uk has no border with any eu state

 

[Narj]

Oh right, I think my definition of centre left is your definition of loony left.

I'll take a more representative parliament, an elected second chamber and no more referendums if we're writing political christmas lists.

Ditching Trident and using harsh language instead pushes into loony territory for me. We'll have to agree to disagree.

I also can't consider voting for a party that takes the likes of Diane Abbott seriously. Saying that, I can't vote for the Tories as it stands, either so I'm probably stuffed come the next GE.

 

[oneilldo]

Yes. So... how many times have you seen him in person, and listened to him talk? I'm going to go ahead and assume the answer to that question is zero. The arrogance of the Leave camp who think they know Corbyn's mind better than his stated opinion yet haven't paid a blind bit of attention to what he's actually said is astonishing.

Anymore takers, I'm sure the fact that he is a renowned euro skeptic, voted against last time and nearly every article he is referenced in with regards to the EU he is overly critical are nullified by me not seeing him in person.

I've asked a few people that side with Corbyn and everyone of them so far has conceded that if he wasn't the Labour leader he would definitely not be voting remain and would be voting to leave (or abstain). Perhaps they too need to see him in person.

 

[bayo000]

EU is democratic, none says is not. However is NO party Democracy.
We have to democratise it more, if we want it to hold.

There are plenty of people in this thread that believe it's not democratic at all.

 

[izzop]

If we vote to leave, by lets say 51/49, do you think there will be further votes on what our future relationship with Europe should be, or will the government then decide enough is enough and make up their on gubbins, like Blair and Brown did by signing whatever they like the look of, without directly consulating the public?

I would like to think that on anything major it would go to a vote in parliament, but this isn't always the case.

If it were Remain, they'd take it and start talking about 'moving forward'. So I hope they have the good grace to do the same if the vote is to leave. But I won't hold my breath.

If it was that close and in favour of Leave, I think it'll be the EU that'll come up with some crap or other in addition to the current government, if Remain we won't hear a word about how close it is.

No doubt Remainers will see this as "conspiracy theory"

 

[francky]

I sometimes think that Remain side are secretly wanting a leave vote, but don't want to publicly say it in front of their EU compadre's......the reason I feel this, is bringing out the much loved Gordon Brown and Tony Blair, as their secret weapons with 2 weeks left to go....if anything will spur people to leave, its those two lecturing the UK to stay!

 

[Mr Jack]

Anymore takers, I'm sure the fact that he is a renowned euro skeptic, voted against last time and nearly every article he is referenced in with regards to the EU he is overly critical are nullified by me not seeing him in person.

You imagine this overrides what he has actually said regarding the referendum why exactly? This is a massive lie from the Leave side; a deliberate attempt to substitute what he's actually saying for what they would like him to say.

Unlike Boris Johnson, with his long track record of being a lying liar who lies, Corbyn has a long track record of saying exactly what he believes. What makes you think he's lying now?

 

[Tefal]

You imagine this overrides what he has actually said regarding the referendum why exactly? This is a massive lie from the Leave side; a deliberate attempt to substitute what he's actually saying for what they would like him to say.

Unlike Boris Johnson, with his long track record of being a lying liar who lies, Corbyn has a long track record of saying exactly what he believes. What makes you think he's lying now?

So what has he actually said?

 

[bayo000]

Anymore takers, I'm sure the fact that he is a renowned euro skeptic, voted against last time and nearly every article he is referenced in with regards to the EU he is overly critical are nullified by me not seeing him in person.

I've asked a few people that side with Corbyn and everyone of them so far has conceded that if he wasn't the Labour leader he would definitely not be voting remain and would be voting to leave (or abstain). Perhaps they too need to see him in person.

He may not like EU but he prefers it over the alternative. Well there would have to be one in first place.

 

[oneilldo]

ah yes lets deflect the argument from Corbyn onto it being the leave sides fault.
I did see what he said on the last leg and he didn't sound very convincing to me.

I back remain because I think the economy is important, links with Europe is important, human rights are important... important. Apart from TTIP and migrant workers he didn't really expand and just kept saying important.

So to be clear is it also the leaves sides fault that some Labour supporters are disenfranchised with Labour and unsure of their 'position' on the EU rather than the lack of clear leadership or are these reports also a massive lie from the leave side?

This whole leave side, remain side labeling/generalisation thing is also pretty tiring (I know I have used the terms previously). Surely its weighing up the arguments on each side and making a decision, not that you completely agree with one and completely disagree with the other. Having 'sides' turns this into some sort of sporting event, prevents discussion and creates tensions both pre and post referendum whatever the result.

Will I be voting Leave the EU - yes I will
Am I a die hard Brexiter or class myself completely on the leave side - No, I find some of the personalities, arguments and figures on each side distasteful, ill thought out and hypocritical

 

[Tefal]

Yes. So... how many times have you seen him in person, and listened to him talk? I'm going to go ahead and assume the answer to that question is zero. The arrogance of the Leave camp who think they know Corbyn's mind better than his stated opinion yet haven't paid a blind bit of attention to what he's actually said is astonishing.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eader-says-long-time-ally-tariq-a7032736.html


Its not just the leave camp its his oldest political allies and his own brother saying jt.

Youd think Mr Tariq would know him fairly well after 40 years

 

[Caged]

If you don't believe the words that come out of his mouth then why would him saying more words louder mean you believed him?

 

[Mulder]

He's always been a sceptic, but that doesn't mean he wants a Brexit. Especially one led by Johnson/Gove. It's certainly not 'plain to see' that he's a Brexit supporter. Shame on you for misrepresenting his views, and doing so in a way which can't be disproved - 'oh he said x, but he means y . Trust me, I know, even though I've never met him... I'm speaking the truth, and he isn't, even though he's always been candid/brutally honest/etc' .

This is the current favourite Leave lie, yes. Corbyn was saying exactly what he is saying now during the leadership campaign. Did you watch The Last Leg? It's deeply, deeply dishonest of the Leave campaign to present what he said as anything other than support for the Remain position.

Corbyn's not a deep Europhile like, say, Mandelson or Farron but it's very clear that he supports Remain overall.

You both seem to underestimate the reality of party politics.

Of course, I can't prove he secretly supports leave, but based on the evidence I would say it's highly likely he would be voting leave if he now wasn't the leader of the Labour party.

He voted against it in 1975, and has been a staunch critic with some of his quotes suggesting it's a 'brutal', 'undemocratic', 'morally wrong' etc organization. Then, all of a sudden, he's cast into the limelight and supposedly supports remain, albeit feels '7.5 of out 10' on the strength of his convictions. He's clearly been pressured/nobbled into saying what the Labour Party has to say, not what he wants to say.

 

[oneilldo]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eader-says-long-time-ally-tariq-a7032736.html


Its not just the leave camp its his oldest political allies and his own brother saying jt.

Youd think Mr Tariq would know him fairly well after 40 years

Perhaps they haven't seen him in person or listened to him talk, leave side scaremongering that

 

[Caged]

You both seem to underestimate the reality of party politics.

Of course, I can't prove he secretly supports leave, but based on the evidence I would say it's highly likely he would be voting leave if he now wasn't the leader of the Labour party.

He voted against it in 1975, and has been a staunch critic with some of his quotes suggesting it's a 'brutal', 'undemocratic', 'morally wrong' etc organization. Then, all of a sudden, he's cast into the limelight and supposedly supports remain, albeit feels '7.5 of out 10' on the strength of his convictions. He's clearly been pressured/nobbled into saying what the Labour Party has to say, not what he wants to say.

Different context though, isn't it. Being a fierce critic of it when you believe you are in the party best placed to look after the interests of the British people is a different situation to being forced to chose one way or the other in a referendum.

He's not shy about his criticisms of the EU but I guess he's being realistic about it as well - if you're going to have a dog egg forced down your throat then the one without bits of glass in is the preferable option. I don't think he'd be picking a different option simply if he wasn't the leader, but I think he'd probably be going for Leave if it was happening during a left-wing resurgence in the UK.

 

[itchy]

Having followed this thread and all the others, the simple fact is......

If we vote to remain we are screwed to ever closer union with the EU and Turkey waiting in the wings. It could be now or in 20 years but either way they joining the EU.

If we vote leave, who knows what will happen no one does, but I feel we will have more control democratically if we leave.
The EU is not what its suppose to be its a nut crusher and a burden on our way of life and our values.

I am voting with the thought its very important to my daughters future as she is only 9.

Just get out the bloody thing and we will pick up the pieces and move on, we might lose a few quid here and there but its just money, what can be lost can always be found.

 

[TangoEchoAlpha]

I can see advantages to both to be honest, but am leaning more towards the leave option - I simply like the idea of having control over our own economy and laws.

Part of me wonders if the government will try to wiggle out of a leave vote but that would be political suicide to do it. I can't imagine Cameron being PM for much longer if we do leave the EU either.