Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (June Poll)

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

  • Remain a member of the European Union

    Votes: 794 45.1%

  • Leave the European Union

    Votes: 965 54.9%
  • Total voters
    1,759
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It's a well written article compared to a lot but they are taking their stance on the basis that they didn't and don't think a common government is a good thing and that the EU is undemocratic.

It is a point that has been discussed quite a bit and I think to say that the EU is undemocratic is wrong. It has a democratic deficit for which proposals have been put forward to improve it sure, but it's not completely undemocratic.

Those who think that remaining is a better option often disagree with the idea that a common government or democracy is bad and that the EU has done a lot for us in a number of areas. Yes it imposes a lot of (sometimes unnecessary) bureaucracy and regulations that we might sometimes feel we don't need but ultimately, it also protects us from our own government.

This is one of the main reasons I've always been on the remain side. I don't particularly trust the people we elect in our own government to work in our best interests all the time and whilst the EU might not be any better, they both work off each other to create another layer that has an influence on the way things are done. I'm not comfortable with handing over complete control to our own government without that external influence and connection the EU offers.
 
A very good post there. One of the most striking things about the leave campaign is that usually we have people constantly railing against decisions our government take yet suddenly all this gets forgotten and the rose tinted specs come out.

Your view sums up mine. The EU isn't perfect but is generally a force for good and has positively impacted many, often in ways we don't realise or simply take for granted.
 
Six6siX said:
If the sentiment of your vote is to make a protest against the EU (by voting out) then surely no amount of concessions should make you change your mind? The premise of your stance is actually, I want to stay in the EU but want change.
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That presupposes there's a chance that such protest is seen as having a chance of producing the desired change.

More likely is that, post vote, if we Leave the EU will push ahead with the unification agenda because a major brake, our voice, will be gone. And if we Remain, they'll push ahead because they'll see the vote to Remain as permission to push ahead.

The opportunity for the EU to signal a willingness to change was in the "renegotiation" with Cameron but the crumbs they offefed him were so paltry it showed an absolute unwillingness to change.

So while a lot of people might vote to Remain in a reformed EU, the actual choice is staying in one that's adamantly ignoring such protests and pushing ahead, or leaving entirely. Protest has already failed, very publicly.
 
Tunney said:
The Times officially comes out in favour of Remain.

Hardly surprising given the demographics of its readership.
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I hope those who complained about the Australian born, US citizen Rupert Murdoch interfering in British democracy when The Sun backed Leave, will complain equally as hard now that Australian born, US citizen Rupert Murdoch is interfering in British democracy with his The Times newspaper backing the EU?
 
What's so odd about all this is that it's become like a battle between two teams rather than about the issues. You see loads of things like 'im Brexit after Cameron did xyz' or 'I am definitely remain because of Boris'.

It's ridiculous. Everyone who wants to leave has been grouped together as one entity and the same for everyone who wants to remain. Then either side simply dismisses everything the other side says. What's the point? Both arguments have points for and against but this just gets lost.
 
Strife212 said:
Labour being against Leave is funny to me, they have no clue who their members are which is probably why they can't win any elections.
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Or maybe the fact that only the most hardcore Conservative members are campaigning leave ought to indicate to people that maybe leave and remain isn't likely to benefit people the way they might think.
 
[TW]Fox;29645710 said:
What's so odd about all this is that it's become like a battle between two teams rather than about the issues. You see loads of things like 'im Brexit after Cameron did xyz' or 'I am definitely remain because of Boris'.

It's ridiculous. Everyone who wants to leave has been grouped together as one entity and the same for everyone who wants to remain. Then either side simply dismisses everything the other side says. What's the point? Both arguments have points for and against but this just gets lost.
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Agreed - whichever side wins, everyone is still going to be in the same country on the 24th and I think it's going to end up being quite a tense situation ahead.

I've come across a number of people who do think it's a 'them and us' / 'win-lose' and are viewing it as such - point scoring is a priority - the first thought is: how can I use this to discredit the 'other side rather than 'what does this mean for us 'In' or 'Out'

Thanks to the campaign lies, media influence and blatant stirring the issues, I can't see how this could have played out any other way to be honest.
 
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[TW]Fox;29645710 said:
What's so odd about all this is that it's become like a battle between two teams rather than about the issues. You see loads of things like 'im Brexit after Cameron did xyz' or 'I am definitely remain because of Boris'.

It's ridiculous. Everyone who wants to leave has been grouped together as one entity and the same for everyone who wants to remain. Then either side simply dismisses everything the other side says. What's the point? Both arguments have points for and against but this just gets lost.
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Modern Politics, society sucks.
 
Kenai said:
Or maybe the fact that only the most hardcore Conservative members are campaigning leave ought to indicate to people that maybe leave and remain isn't likely to benefit people the way they might think.
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Exactly, much of what the EU does is quite up Labours street.

Whereas leaving the EU seems very much a right wing thing - fine for those with wealth who presumably find the additional workers and consumers rights an inconvenience anyway...
 
[TW]Fox;29645791 said:
Exactly, much of what the EU does is quite up Labours street.
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I remember the days when Labour were about increasing workers' wages - not depressing them. The Guardian Money Editor has said he's supporting Brexit for the same reasons: https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/jun/18/eu-vote-brexit-working-people-rents-wages

The EU has given us cheap mobile phone roaming charges, cheaper flights and proper compensation when things go wrong. It has helped clean up the environment, improving our rivers and beaches. It has given us unprecedented freedom to travel visa-free across the continent. And I’m voting out.

Why? I know a painter/decorator who has not been able to raise his wages for 15 years. There’s always someone else, he says, willing to work for less. A driver who arrived from Turkey 18 years ago, who says the bus companies used to pay more than £12 an hour, but can now pay £10 or less because they have so many takers (and yes, the irony is noted). A care-home cleaner in a rundown seaside town who reckons her hopes of ever getting more than the minimum wage are zero. Each blames an influx of workers from the EU. Each of them are voting out. Tell them the EU protects workers’ rights and they just laugh.

When companies launch recruitment drives in eastern Europe they blame skills shortages in Britain. Really? If a big business wants to hire, say, drivers on £25 an hour, it will find it can do so easily; what they really mean is that they can’t find people willing to work for £10 an hour or less, with antisocial hours to boot. Meanwhile, workers here rejecting low wages are told they are lazy, chavvy and ****less when they refuse to be part of the so-called “jobs factory of Europe”.

Meanwhile, as wages for people in low-income groups are pegged back, rents rise. Many times I interviewed Britain’s biggest buy-to-let landlord, Fergus Wilson, and many times he told me how well he was doing from eastern European migrants, who filled nearly all his properties and kept his rental income booming.
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