Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (June Poll)

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

  • Remain a member of the European Union

    Votes: 794 45.1%
  • Leave the European Union

    Votes: 965 54.9%

  • Total voters
    1,759
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No we don't it's now at 20% and has been for a few years, it was lowered to 15% during the recession i think.

Thats the point he was making, we are free to lower it to as low as 15 without permission. If it was controlled by the EU it would not be the case, but it is only restricted.

Whats the actual issue with an EU army? :confused:

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UK aluminium deposits are faltering. Citizen 'thinking foil helmet' prices will shoot up, luckily its two 15m rolls for £3 in your local Tesco.
 
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Whats the actual issue with an EU army? :confused:

- Undermines NATO
- Question marks over how effective it'll be given historic European underspend on Defence and the bloated, bureaucratic decision making process in Brussels
- Affects UK's ability to defend our interests e.g. would an EU Army go and re-take an invaded British Overseas Territory such as the Falklands? Would an EU Army undertake a peace-keeping mission such as Sierra Leone?
- Ends all pretence that EU member states are sovereign nations - there will be no doubt that they are part of a federal superstate of Europe.
 
Defence spending is a massive deal for most countries and possibly one of the most important reasons to have a government in the first place is an army that no other entity in a country can own, control or influence for advantage. A change in that situation is massive, armies are very expensive lots of tax required and its a big issue

Hopefully we can all agree that EU is in no way static and it'll certainly be changing after the vote.
I dont like the trajectory based on previous events personally, I think we'd be better off interacting with Europe more as a self determining country. Lets us have a buffer to any mistakes they carry out within the Euro and so on
George Soros is "exaggerating" with his take on Brexit effect on pound, say Ross
US billionaire Wilbur Ross has told CNBC that George Soros is "exaggerating" with his take on Brexit and its implications for the pound.

Mr Soros warned that if Britain vote to leave the EU it will create a Black Friday far more damaging than when he bet against sterling and forced the UK out of the European Exchange Mechanism in 1992.

Writing in today's Guardian, Mr Soros said the pound could fall by more than 20pc if a Brexit occurred.

However, Mr Ross is not convinced, in fact he thinks Mr Soros is "exaggerating".

He said: "There is a tremendous amount of short positions on the pound & the euro... So George (Soros) may be exaggerating a bit."
Did someone mention this, Soros is left leaning I guess. He also grew up in the ghettos during the war, seems a big opinion to weigh in
 
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Thats the point he was making, we are free to lower it to as low as 15 without permission. If it was controlled by the EU it would not be the case, but it is only restricted.

Exactly. So comparing the UK VAT contribution to total EU VAT contributions and being outraged by the fact that we put in a greater percentage when we have control over the amount we put in is ridiculous..
 
Whats the actual issue with an EU army? :confused:

I have concerns about it depending on how it's implemented. I have no problem with some UK forces being under the control of the EU to cover some of the same functions that NATO does in Eastern Europe.

The UK has a fairly well funded military for the purposes of defence and power projection. Whilst the EU army may indeed help defence, it could hinder power projection and wider foreign policy. I imagine that France may also have issues as they would want similar autonomy - they've deployed troops in support of Mali as recently as 2014.

The idea of harmonising weaponry and doctrine could also be problematic, especially due to the history of UK armed forces and the fact that we still want global reach for operations.

Despite all of that, I want to make clear, that we are much better making these concerns known and forming policy on the inside, whilst being a member of the EU.
 
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I get and agree with your point but you're fighting a battle over irrelevant detail.

I am being pedantic, that is true, but I'm tired of the Leave side's presentation of the relationship between the UK and the EU. The fact is that the EU isn't a superstate, and we're not ruled from Brussels; on this - as on so many other things - the decisions made in Westminster are much more important. And where Brussels does make decisions it is because our government has decided that co-operating with other EU countries over these things is beneficial to us. Despite the constant rhetoric about political union replacing the single market, the overwhelming majority of stuff that the EU does is about the single market and most of what it does that seems to sit outside that (on VAT, for example) is there to prevent parts of the single market becoming toxic.

The argument is a philosophical one over the dynamic between the EU and the UK; arguing over the definition of words here isn't moving the debate forward.

The path has been towards greater integration and will probably continue to be. The reason for this is simple: integration is good. More integration means lower barriers between our nations making movement of goods, people and ideas easier to the benefit of all. Having a common voltage standard is great because it means a computer brought in England will work in Spain or Holland (okay, you'd need to buy a new plug but that's it); having common radio band usage allows mobile phone roaming; and so on and so forth.

However, it's very clear that there is no great appetite in the EU at the moment for any significant increases in integration. We're not going to get a big scary EU army, there's no appetite for it; and we're not going to become the United States of Europe, there's no appetite for it. And even if there was, the EU couldn't force the UK to go down that path. The EU is not some remote ogre dictating to the UK, it's a common decision making organisation of which we're very much a part.

Cars are different between countries already, so I'm not sure what this means.

The single market is not yet perfect. Cars are one of the example where the process is not complete (and never will be completely because there's no chance of a UK switch to driving on the wrong side of the road) but there has been a convergence of all sorts of rules on cars, the clearest examples of this is the Motor vehicle type approval rules and the Euro emission standards, but there's also been a convergence of more minor details between countries.
 
They rather call it the big bad puppeteer and think its better to have our strings cut so we flop on the floor, over actually co-operating like we are one of the limbs of the EU puppet with no master.

Better to have free will like Pinocchio than any of the above :cool:
 
I contend that it is different because NATO and the UN are international entities across continents. What we are discussing here is an entirely European affair with no impartial or external oversight or control.

I think one of the main reasons it would be different would be cost. Military technology is painfully expensive and continues to increase in cost. A number of EU countries simply can't afford to keep pace and pooling capability and finance actually makes perfect sense and spreads risk from an EU perspective.

We can do joint military ventures without a single European army though, Eurofighter Typhoon being an obvious example. We can also work closely and trade with our European friends without having a political union.
 
The single market is not yet perfect. Cars are one of the example where the process is not complete (and never will be completely because there's no chance of a UK switch to driving on the wrong side of the road) but there has been a convergence of all sorts of rules on cars, the clearest examples of this is the Motor vehicle type approval rules and the Euro emission standards, but there's also been a convergence of more minor details between countries.

Which is a good example of trade barriers. If you have a company such as GM in the US, they can't just ship models designed and built in the US to Europe as they likely wouldn't meet all the requirements, especially on emissions. That why they have European brands, with their own models and often europe specific engines to make this easier, but that adds loads of cost in design and manufacture.

Getting rid of tariffs is easy but making it easy to sell a car made in one part of the world to another is much harder with the plethora of different rules in the target market.
 
The influence EU has is not absolute but it does control spending on various things which gives them leverage. Same type of deal occurs in USA where the Federal government will threaten to withdraw funding on unrelated projects if a state does not step in line on some policy being pressed forward by central powers.
I keep mentioning EURO because if its influencing the largest powers in the EU then its going to effect us, we dont have a perfected modular detachment from their situation. If that blows up for them its really negative for us, the best way to not get dragged into the flawed bailouts of Greece and problems with various states debts is to stay as a country UK in europe but outside EU like Norway or Switzerland.
If we could just freeze time and not go down the road with ECB and other large Euro entities I might vote to stay in but what will happen is we become part of that situation and the Euro really is not a standard that has been carried out properly in the past and I think not in the future

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/ex...erendum-positive-brexit-UK-vote-MImmi-Kvisvik

If somebody whose held the highest rank in the army is concerned about an EU army and the damage it causes not just to UK defence but costs to the government then its reasonable to take notice of his experience and considered opinion
 
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The influence EU has is not absolute but it does control spending on various things which gives them leverage. Same type of deal occurs in USA where the Federal government will threaten to withdraw funding on unrelated projects if a state does not step in line on some policy being pressed forward by central powers

When has it done this? What powers has it got that allow it do this? Oh, yes: none. The EU will take action against people who don't live up the international agreements they made - Switzerland's decision to unilaterally break it's deal with the EU over free movement is a good example - but the idea that it will pull funding over unrelated things in order to push through an agenda aimed at getting new policy through is unfounded.

If somebody whose held the highest rank in the army is concerned about an EU army and the damage it causes not just to UK defence but costs to the government then its reasonable to take notice of his experience and considered opinion

But, as had been repeatedly pointed out, there are more high ranking voices on the Remain side than the Leave. Why should I listen to him over them?
 
Better to have free will like Pinocchio than any of the above :cool:

But there is no puppeteer and the imaginary monster is only in your head. We have plenty of control over ourselves. Restrictions the EU imposes are very reasonable and we would stay within most of those restrictions regardless of if they were there or not.

The point is that we have free will and blaming our shortcomings on the EU only shifts blame away from what is at fault.

If employment is an issue, tackle employment.

If lack of services are an issue, tackle that.

Blaming it on migration when so much balances on top of the huge pile of taxed money we obtain from both UK and non UK citizens, is just foolish.
 
Absolutely not. If the pro-EU campaign can talk about WW3 starting, house prices collapsing by 20%, everyone being £4k a year worse off, the sky falling in then I can talk about the creation of an EU Army, which actually is a lot more likely than anything else above given that it's a stated objective for many senior European politicians.

Here you are, a source talking about 'integrating' Europe's armed forces http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ck-EU-army-in-exchange-for-renegotiation.html

There you go again, pretending everyone who is on one side has identical views.

Very few people here believe the 'world war 3' claims.
 
I see an EU army as nothing more than each member chipping in a regiment of mech infantry and 20 tankS and them going on exercises together and doing peacekeeping work where the eu needs a voice and pressure. It's not replacing nato but it is removing the American dominance which I'm sure they are worried about. Only Britain has to lose out there.

It will be a collosul cluster ****. Probably kill more soldiers in blue on blue than deployed peacekeeping .

I get the impression that people think our soldiers will become brainwashed pawns and be set upon our own people undrr the orders of Merkel'S new 4th riche. Brutally supressing the populous that foolishly decided to vote remain

I for one welcome our neo nazis overlords and and fully compliant with your wishes
 
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But, as had been repeatedly pointed out, there are more high ranking voices on the Remain side than the Leave. Why should I listen to him over them?

If they all have spoken about EU army and their experience, opinions on that then it'd be useful to get a paragraph by each posted or links

Defence is a massive deal though, tons of money goes on defence and on the other side its also associated with jobs. We will be working with Europe defence in any case, individually and via Nato.

EU is ultimately about an amalgamation of the various countries. That could be beneficial in lots of ways, cost less even and very obviously its better not to fight with Germany but have integration and cooperation like we do. But Im against larger government (over costs if nothing else) and also centralism, since they are continuing to increase that aspect and its alarming to me most of all how badly done the finance and (bad) debts are handled.

We really should not proceed any further, its not possible to just halt so staying close to Europe but outside EU is the best choice imo; unless I read something really convincing otherwise of course!


Brexit: Norway's Prime Minister Erna Solberg warns Britons ‘won’t like’ life outside EU
'Brussels will decide without the Brits being able to participate in the decision-making'
Just posting stuff i see http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...e-minister-erna-solberg-warning-a7084926.html
 
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I see an EU army as nothing more than each member chipping in a regiment of mech infantry and 20 tankS and them going on exercises together and doing peacekeeping work where the eu needs a voice and pressure. It's not replacing nato but it is removing the American dominance which I'm sure they are worried about. Only Britain has to lose out there.

It will be a collosul cluster ****. Probably kill more soldiers in blue on blue than deployed peacekeeping .

I get the impression that people think our soldiers will become brainwashed pawns and be set upon our own people undrr the orders of Merkel'S new 4th riche. Brutally supressing the populous that foolishly decided to vote remain

I for one welcome our neo nazis overlords and and fully compliant with your wishes



But who is going to put in charge of it? That's my worry.
 
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