Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (June Poll)

[h4rm0ny]

The great debate only seemed to have a lot of rhetoric to be honest

Largely my view. I felt (didn't watch all of it) that the Remain speakers tried a bit more to argue factually than the Leave speakers, but the whole format of the debate was not conducive to informing people or reasoned back and forth. It's disheartening to see that critical decisions in our country's future are made by soundbites being thrown back and forth in front of an audience and petty putdowns. Every time Sadiq was speaking, Boris would turn towards the audience and do this affected head-shaking.

Debate by mockery - that's a great way for our country to progress!

 

[Roar87]

Not really sure what the point of that statistic is, it's been discussed for a long time that our politicians aren't exactly well paid for what they do. There are head teachers of state schools being paid more than the PM


That's why they all fiddle their expenses and take second jobs

10,000 on more than £143,000? That seems wildly excessive. Can you imagine a private company paying those sorts of wages? The bank I work for probably has about 1 in 100 people on that sort of money, and they're generally above Senior Manager level.

 

[MookJong]

You do realise that brexit won't make any difference to immigration, right? Over half all immigration currently is non-EU and yet it still continues and this is with a Tory government. Your best hope is that brexit will so thoroughly destroy the economy that no one will want to come here, back to being the "poor man of Europe" perhaps?

The other thing is that we are never shown a breakdown of the EU immigrants. How many are students, how many are in full time work and how many are unemployed?

How can anyone make a judgment if the 184,000 are good or bad for the country if we have no idea what they are up to. What we do know is that 50% come from the old EU15 countries so are most likely coming into skilled work.

 

[Insanties_birth]

Largely my view. I felt (didn't watch all of it) that the Remain speakers tried a bit more to argue factually than the Leave speakers, but the whole format of the debate was not conducive to informing people or reasoned back and forth. It's disheartening to see that critical decisions in our country's future are made by soundbites being thrown back and forth in front of an audience and petty putdowns. Every time Sadiq was speaking, Boris would turn towards the audience and do this affected head-shaking.

Debate by mockery - that's a great way for our country to progress!

THat's kind of the issue I noticed, it's not about back and forth debate like you'd get on some question time or couch session so there was a lot of chance to throw out some rhetoric and just let the audience clap.

It's fine if they then do it fairly or productively on there own accord but like I mentioned, citing hatred or crying scaremongering are not really proper debate.

 

[MookJong]

Largely my view. I felt (didn't watch all of it) that the Remain speakers tried a bit more to argue factually than the Leave speakers, but the whole format of the debate was not conducive to informing people or reasoned back and forth. It's disheartening to see that critical decisions in our country's future are made by soundbites being thrown back and forth in front of an audience and petty putdowns. Every time Sadiq was speaking, Boris would turn towards the audience and do this affected head-shaking.

Debate by mockery - that's a great way for our country to progress!

Yep my feeling entirely. As I have said earlier in this thread when that Thames flotilla happened I literally snapped out of my trance and just thought WTF. Since then I have actually gone away and read the real facts. The EU is like any large organisation it has it's issues but my conclusion is that we are still better in than out.

If we leave there are going to be a whole host of disappointed people. I am not excited or happy to vote remain, it is basically to ask for more of the same but I have not been persuaded in any way how leaving would give this country a brighter future.

Our job if we remain is to keep vigilant, keep the pressure on the government to fight the EU. We are not in the Euro or the Schengen, we have made the EU bend to our will in the past and we should continue to do so.

 

[vincent1989]

The entire remain camp arguments seem to hinge on the uncertainty of exiting the EU, the allegory of the cave would be a rather fitting comparison...

They've seen the light and it's startling so let's remain in the dark because that's what we've always known - would explain why so many of the younger generation, those who have been perpetually in chains, are voting to remain whilst so many of the older generation are voting to leave.

 

[Jonners]

Last night when the Camera panned on the remain camp, they certainly looked to be lacking something

 

[Six6siX]

Our job if we remain is to keep vigilant, keep the pressure on the government to fight the EU. We are not in the Euro or the Schengen, we have made the EU bend to our will in the past and we should continue to do so.

This is important. People need to take an interest in the wider politics of the EU and stop buying the same old excuses peddled by the media that the government gives us when something is wrong.

There are stats showing how few people voted in elections for MEPs - maybe we should concentrate on the influence we do have there like every other EU country does rather than have representatives who don't give a crap. And then maybe we'd get the changes we want.

It's a very British thing to complain. It's easier to complain. It's difficult to change things but we have the ability to do just that - we just don't use it.

 

[ChroniC]

I think it is a very damning indication of the EU in general that countries like Sweden, France and Italy (according to Sky News) are hoping we leave, so thy can have their own referendum. Is it the case that a lot of countries don't like being in it but are scared of the idea of leaving and need someone to stand up and say enough is enough.

 

[Jonners]

I think it is a very damning indication of the EU in general that countries like Sweden, France and Italy (according to Sky News) are hoping we leave, so thy can have their own referendum. Is it the case that a lot of countries don't like being in it but are scared of the idea of leaving and need someone to stand up and say enough is enough.

Remember when us Brits had clout, some Backbone?

Now it is all Late teens who know no better who have been hauled in and succumbed to the remain crowd. Sad really.

Tomorrow we have opportunity to stand on our own two feet, and leaving this rotten empire, voting leave! Then hopefully neighbouring Countries will follow...

 

[Freakbro]

I think it is a very damning indication of the EU in general that countries like Sweden, France and Italy (according to Sky News) are hoping we leave, so thy can have their own referendum. Is it the case that a lot of countries don't like being in it but are scared of the idea of leaving and need someone to stand up and say enough is enough.

Well, lets see how the result of our referendum pans out before making the extrapolation that other countries are hoping to leave.....maybe, like us, it's just a loud minority that want to leave.

 

[Phil99]

10,000 on more than £143,000? That seems wildly excessive. Can you imagine a private company paying those sorts of wages? The bank I work for probably has about 1 in 100 people on that sort of money, and they're generally above Senior Manager level.

Yes. I can very easily imagine private companies paying some valuable employees more than £143k 10'000 isn't that high of a number. I'm not sure what your qualifying point is - of course they're going to be above (or even at) senior manager level, and I imagine there are plenty of EU citizens at those levels. EU migrants aren't all fruit pickers from Romania.

 

[George Hincapie]

Wrong. It's overseen by its member countries, just like the UN, NATO.

How can it be wrong? It doesn't exist yet. That was my conclusion based upon significant military experience and common sense. Of course I could be wrong, but given the number of unguarded comments, I really don't think I am.

 

[George Hincapie]

Yes. I can very easily imagine private companies paying some valuable employees more than £143k 10'000 isn't that high of a number. I'm not sure what your qualifying point is - of course they're going to be above (or even at) senior manager level, and I imagine there are plenty of EU citizens at those levels. EU migrants aren't all fruit pickers from Romania.

Exactly. My wife earns almost that and she is only mid-tier in seniority at her bank. £143K basic is nothing spectacular in the financial sector.

 

[Metallifux]

The other thing is that we are never shown a breakdown of the EU immigrants. How many are students, how many are in full time work and how many are unemployed?

How can anyone make a judgment if the 184,000 are good or bad for the country if we have no idea what they are up to. What we do know is that 50% come from the old EU15 countries so are most likely coming into skilled work.

Was posted just yesterday.

 

[Metallifux]

You do realise that brexit won't make any difference to immigration, right? Over half all immigration currently is non-EU and yet it still continues and this is with a Tory government. Your best hope is that brexit will so thoroughly destroy the economy that no one will want to come here, back to being the "poor man of Europe" perhaps?

I wonder if someone can clarify this. Say in a brexit situation we decided the best course of action would to join the EFTA countries? Obviously free movement applies. Would we however be free to use our own laws for the deportation of criminals without being overruled, or to stipulate how long immigrants can be here looking for work ala Cameron's deal?

 

[sgavan]

A bit of fun but comedy can also be informative

 

[Insanties_birth]

Yep my feeling entirely. As I have said earlier in this thread when that Thames flotilla happened I literally snapped out of my trance and just thought WTF. Since then I have actually gone away and read the real facts. The EU is like any large organisation it has it's issues but my conclusion is that we are still better in than out.

If we leave there are going to be a whole host of disappointed people. I am not excited or happy to vote remain, it is basically to ask for more of the same but I have not been persuaded in any way how leaving would give this country a brighter future.

Our job if we remain is to keep vigilant, keep the pressure on the government to fight the EU. We are not in the Euro or the Schengen, we have made the EU bend to our will in the past and we should continue to do so.

You have to bear in mind (despite the craze on either side) it's not really going to be as big an event or a huge cataclysm either way. The IMF recently said we can actually avoid recession if we brexit and that the reported mlosses on the economy that we always hear about is measured based on our current growth so even if we lose some we're still going to be growing.

http://news.sky.com/story/1713684/imf-brexit-may-not-mean-a-british-recession

http://news.sky.com/story/1700769/so-whats-fishy-about-treasury-brexit-report

For me despite these arguments (and more and more busiensses coming out in favour of brexit, still less than remain though of course) I don't just take it for face value. This is a big bonus to making the economic argument against brexit weaker but I do believe there would be some flight of business so that would lead to a few hits on economic performance still and lead it to be a bit lower but more than likely still seeing growth in the economy.

For me the economic argument is one of the large ones but I see it as we're not losing as much as they initially wanted to portray. The other issues are usually sovereignity which I feel is a more slippery slope and once we give in to the EU there is little chance of ever going back as there will be 40 years again of attempted closer union and tying us in that will make it even harder to leave. My question is, do we start with a healthy democracy and aim to grow our economy from there (brexit) or do we aim for a system with democracy and sovereignity being blurred to rules from outside and the future being unsure on whether this will be eroded further. For me I want to make sure the principles of democracy and the peoples voice being heard are maintained at the expense of minor benefits like not having to hold a passport. One argument I'd pose is that unlike most other organisations the EU does intend to bind us together in ways (whether people agree or not) that do conflict with traditional democracy. We have little say or visibility on EU actions and reversing them is extremely difficult if not imossible yet within 40 years we've already lost control of many taxation, immigration and trade laws. Trade is fair enough of course but when you factor in nato aren't trying to take out tax laws from us and the UN doesn't want to impose closer integration or unlimited immigration then comparing the EU to any large organisation we deal with usually is a bit misguided.

Forme the argument is not whether the EU is okay or not, it's whether we ever want to have control on these matters because going forward it's a case that the longer we are in the EU the more likely we are to have one or two politicians eventually give up more of our decision making ability. For me the values of the people, respecting that democracy works better when the people on the top are both accountable and made to listen to the public (to get another perspective on situations) as well as making there own decisions, the greater flexibility of not having to try and measure and adjust policies to suit 26 other countries and also safeguard our democracy from further integration is the way we make sure we maintain a healthy democracy that can handle and flexibly adjust to any future challenges without being forced to adhere or wait for the answer of others.

You say our job is to keep vigilant with the EU but we know voter turnout for EU elections is marginal, we know the visibility of the politics ot the public is usually not the best either. What we have is little chance to ensure that any successive prime ministers have a coherent vision of how the EU should change as well (this happens in the UK too but with a larger UK public scrutiny it becomes difficult for them to get away with changing things for the worse). If we join, what protection do we really have over further integration?

 

[Uther]

Yep I'd say it will be about that. Who knows how much difference the recent campaign suspensions will have.

And then following us staying in out comes the new enlarged EU budget, new plans for "faster and deeper" integration, more "integration" of military forces etc. Or maybe they'll wait until after the French and German elections like the below.



Can't wait.

Exactly what I can see happening too.

 

[Tenuous]

I wonder if someone can clarify this. Say in a brexit situation we decided the best course of action would to join the EFTA countries? Obviously free movement applies. Would we however be free to use our own laws for the deportation of criminals without being overruled, or to stipulate how long immigrants can be here looking for work ala Cameron's deal?

Well, for a start, the complaints about 'human rights' stopping us deporting criminals isn't anything to do with the EU. The European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) is an entirely separate agreement and leaving the EU won't affect our obligations under it. It's also worth noting that its creation was led by the UK after WWII and it is based on British standards of law and our traditions of civil liberties.

As for membership of EEA/EFTA, we would have to sign up for exactly the same rules of free movement as we have now regarding EU citizens. The Norwegians and Swiss are good examples of this.