Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (June Poll)

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

  • Remain a member of the European Union

    Votes: 794 45.1%

  • Leave the European Union

    Votes: 965 54.9%
  • Total voters
    1,759
Status
Not open for further replies.
Metallifux said:
I wonder if someone can clarify this. Say in a brexit situation we decided the best course of action would to join the EFTA countries? Obviously free movement applies. Would we however be free to use our own laws for the deportation of criminals without being overruled, or to stipulate how long immigrants can be here looking for work ala Cameron's deal?
Click to expand...

If we enter EFTA the free movement rules would be as they are now, but without the tweaks that Cameron got in his re-negotiation. Depending on the exact arrangement we make we might, or might not, be subject to the European Court of Justice but, if we're not, and we behave contrary to the EU rules then the EU would consider us in breach of our treaty and respond appropriately.

Also, most of the times I'm aware of that deportation has been overruled it has been by the ECHR not the ECJ, and we would remain party to that.
 
5y8Hqsyl.jpg


There won't be any riots if we leave. You need a critical mass of people for a riot and that's hard to achieve in a village.
 


"We will not go quietly into the night!" We will not vanish without a fight! We're going to live on! We're going to survive! Tomorrow we celebrate our Independence Day!
 
Tenuous said:
Well, for a start, the complaints about 'human rights' stopping us deporting criminals isn't anything to do with the EU. The European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) is an entirely separate agreement and leaving the EU won't affect our obligations under it. It's also worth noting that its creation was led by the UK after WWII and it is based on British standards of law and our traditions of civil liberties.
Click to expand...

Sorry but this myth has been blown out of the water time and time again in this thread. The ECJ, which is very much an EU institutuion, has expanded its authority to include ruling on domestic justice issues. Here are just two examples where the ECJ has prevented deportations taking place:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...itains-right-to-deport-foreign-criminals.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...-passports-should-not-be-jailed-ECJ-says.html
 
Tenuous said:
You do realise that brexit won't make any difference to immigration, right? Over half all immigration currently is non-EU and yet it still continues and this is with a Tory government. Your best hope is that brexit will so thoroughly destroy the economy that no one will want to come here, back to being the "poor man of Europe" perhaps?
Click to expand...

That's not the point. The point is that whatever the level of immigration, it is the UK government that decides. Then we, the electorate, can hold that government to account at the ballot box. Right now, the EU Commission is not democratically accountable. Fundamentally, a vote to leave the EU is a vote to strengthen our democracy. The referendum is about democratic accountability, and a vote to leave is a vote for greater democracy.
 
{T5K}TT said:
That's not the point. The point is that whatever the level of immigration, it is the UK government that decides. Then we, the electorate, can hold that government to account at the ballot box. Right now, the EU Commission is not democratically accountable. Fundamentally, a vote to leave the EU is a vote to strengthen our democracy. The referendum is about democratic accountability, and a vote to leave is a vote for greater democracy.
Click to expand...

At what cost though?

I've heard a lot of people say similar but when questioned as to the implications of 'gaining' this greater democracy, they don't seem to be concerned with the wider impact.
 
scorza said:
Sorry but this myth has been blown out of the water time and time again in this thread. The ECJ, which is very much an EU institutuion, has expanded its authority to include ruling on domestic justice issues. Here are just two examples where the ECJ has prevented deportations taking place:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...itains-right-to-deport-foreign-criminals.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...-passports-should-not-be-jailed-ECJ-says.html
Click to expand...

I take it you only read the headlines rather than the details? As neither of those stories actually live up to the hyperbole in the title.
 
{T5K}TT said:
That's not the point. The point is that whatever the level of immigration, it is the UK government that decides. Then we, the electorate, can hold that government to account at the ballot box. Right now, the EU Commission is not democratically accountable. Fundamentally, a vote to leave the EU is a vote to strengthen our democracy. The referendum is about democratic accountability, and a vote to leave is a vote for greater democracy.
Click to expand...

If you want greater democracy go campaign for electoral reform and the reformation of the House of Lords. The EU Commission is the equivalent of the civil service and is just as democratically accountable as our civil servants, requiring the backing of both the democratically elected European Parliament and the representatives of our democratically elected governments. Leaving the EU will not increase democratic accountability nor is it a vote for greater democracy.
 
Tenuous said:
I take it you only read the headlines rather than the details? As neither of those stories actually live up to the hyperbole in the title.
Click to expand...

Whatever pedantic detail you think you've picked up on, it still blows your argument that deporting criminals isn't anything to do with the EU.

Tenuous said:
If you want greater democracy go campaign for electoral reform and the reformation of the House of Lords. The EU Commission is the equivalent of the civil service and is just as democratically accountable as our civil servants, requiring the backing of both the democratically elected European Parliament and the representatives of our democratically elected governments. Leaving the EU will not increase democratic accountability nor is it a vote for greater democracy.
Click to expand...

Yawn - the same tired myths verbatim from the pro-EU campaign.
 
Freakbro said:
I'm still waiting for any Leaver on here to comment on Boris's announcement he is pro-immigration and proposes to give an amnesty to illegal immigrants who have evaded deportation for 12 years.

Deuse....anyone?
Click to expand...


They do the same in the US, and have done for years. And they also say "Nothing to see here" ;)
 
Freakbro said:
I'm still waiting for any Leaver on here to comment on Boris's announcement he is pro-immigration and proposes to give an amnesty to illegal immigrants who have evaded deportation for 12 years.

Deuse....anyone?
Click to expand...

I'm a leave voter, I have no problem with immigration in general. My family were immigrants (thanks for the cash yo!)
 
deuse said:
They do the same in the US, and have done for years. And they also say "Nothing to see here" ;)
Click to expand...

Ahh right, so you are ok with that proposal, good to know! :)

I'm glad we can all be so welcoming to illegal immigrants.....now to just work on that welcoming committee for the legal ones...
 
George Hincapie said:
Do we have to remain part of the framework that forces the ECJ on us? Can we leave it?
Click to expand...

The most likely outcome, if we enter the EFTA, is that we would be subject to the EFTA court of Justice instead. But the EFTA court has always sought to align its rulings with those of the ECJ so I wouldn't expect much difference in the practical effects.

Of course, the exact position we end up under is deeply uncertain as we would likely negotiate a subtly different deal to existing EFTA countries.

Oh, and the ECJ wasn't "forced" on us, we agreed to it as part of our negotiations with the rest of the EU.
 
Freakbro said:
I'm still waiting for any Leaver on here to comment on Boris's announcement he is pro-immigration and proposes to give an amnesty to illegal immigrants who have evaded deportation for 12 years.

Deuse....anyone?
Click to expand...
Did you even reply to the person who did it before? Besides there's nothing wrong with being pro immigration, if he's not the man to change immigration short term then at least we're getting a democracy that can eventually listen to the people if the issue becomes a problem in the future. Right now we need immigration but it can't hurt to have controlled immigration which manages who comes in and to have the future opportunity to control the issue. In the end Remain offers no choice on that prospect so if you're wanting immigration to go down, whether Boris will do it or not, you're still better off voting leave.

You ... do remember he'd only be in parliament for 5 years max right? Do you honestly hinder the crux of your argument on whether the EU (likely to have us for at least another 20 years) and forces unlimited migration is going to be any way comparable to not immediately stopping migration in a system where we will be able to enact change and voice our opinions on the subject and vote towards it every 5 years?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom