Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (June Poll)

[Mr Jack]

I certainly didn't vote for Mr J.

I certainly didn't vote for Mr Cameron, but that doesn't mean there was no democratic involvement in his becoming PM. Juncker is the president because the EPP won the most votes in the EU parliament and they has chosen him as their representative*.

The council is composed of commissioners who were chosen by directly by each of the democratically elected national governments, and the whole council is then approved by the democratically elected EU parliament.

The EU could be more directly democratic but it can only do so by removing control and sovereignty from the various democratically elected national governments. As it stands, it's a compromise between sovereignty and direct democratic accountability; and it cannot become more democratic without the national governments surrendering more sovereignty. As it stands, it's hugely more democratic than any other international organisation and, were we to leave, we would find ourselves involved in many of the same negotiations but with far less democratic oversight.


* - De jure the parliament has input into the choice of president, de facto they choose him. It was widely understood across the rest of Europe that Juncker would be president if the EPP won the most seats before the EU election.

 

[Six6siX]

Rebuffals:
Economy: We save £15bn and renegotiate and have 2yrs to set up our deals. With £12tr worth of money we are very lucrative for investors and business
Turkey issue - we are in the EU we could still be vetoed on Turkey joining...
Environment - it has I agree but we can just copy its rules. Laws are not subject to copyright

These figures again

Been discussed to death so many times. It's very unlikely we come out of a leave vote with a net saving. What it costs us to stay in the EU will just be spent again establishing and maintaining everything from scratch.

 

[Six6siX]

Lets look generally: Germany especially is very pro individual privacy. The political landscape in the UK is more authoritarian. It is more likely that the EU will have objections over online privacy than the UK gov will.

My thoughts exactly. I'm glad it's not just me that thinks this!

 

[Narj]

Why would you not want Mr J in charge when he's such an inspiring leader? Some websites posting this are being a bit naughty as this happened last year but still... Love the dictator comment.

 

[fez]

These figures again

Been discussed to death so many times. It's very unlikely we come out of a leave vote with a net saving. What it costs us to stay in the EU will just be spent again establishing and maintaining everything from scratch.

We don't leave things entirely to the EU though do we. We still have internal positions that debate and deal with issues that effect us as a county regardless of whether the ultimate decision comes from the EU. I doubt that leaving the EU would leave us suddenly without a system in place to manage all of the things the EU took a lead on.

 

[RaohNS]

Economy: But the EU has no incentive to make this easy for us. The security of the bloc is likely to be pressing more on Germany/France than pure economics. We may be able to get good deals outside of the EU, I won't pretend to know, but I think it's safe to say that even in the most favourable of circimstances, it will not be quick or easy.
Turkey: All member states must agree new members, if we are in the EU we have an absolute veto on Turkey's membership.
Environment: If it was so easy, why didn't we legislate on our own earlier? Probably because it's not on the UK gov's priority list.

I think the EU has bigger worries as a result of our referendum. The concentration of power is under attack and it knows this. We have issues in Greece, Spain, Italy. We have migrant self inflicted crisis. Fiscal uncertainty, they now have a likelihood that other European nations may want to get off the burning ship.

They wont have a choice on making it easy. The WTO has to be applying its rules consistently. I would trust UKIP to veto admission of Turkey.

Environment: Maybe we should have done that but either way, trade would force us to adopt specifications made by Europe.

 

[Burnsy2023]

We don't leave things entirely to the EU though do we. We still have internal positions that debate and deal with issues that effect us as a county regardless of whether the ultimate decision comes from the EU. I doubt that leaving the EU would leave us suddenly without a system in place to manage all of the things the EU took a lead on.

Possibly not, but making policy like this is resource intensive and expensive. With the current level of austerity, is the Gov really going to choose legal commissions over other public funding such as the local government? Unlikely, so those resources are likely to be cut to a point where they can't do everything the EU does.

 

[Glaucus]

We don't leave things entirely to the EU though do we. We still have internal positions that debate and deal with issues that effect us as a county regardless of whether the ultimate decision comes from the EU. I doubt that leaving the EU would leave us suddenly without a system in place to manage all of the things the EU took a lead on.

Most of our trade is with Europe. If you think we could expand trade to the rest of the world by a large margin, why haven't we? We've been free to do it. Then look at this goverment and all other governments we've had, they haven't been environmental, or consumer or workers, or privacy rights.

 

[RaohNS]

I certainly didn't vote for Mr Cameron, but that doesn't mean there was no democratic involvement in his becoming PM. Juncker is the president because the EPP won the most votes in the EU parliament and they has chosen him as their representative*.


* - De jure the parliament has input into the choice of president, de facto they choose him. It was widely understood across the rest of Europe that Juncker would be president if the EPP won the most seats before the EU election

The EU could be more directly democratic but it can only do so by removing control and sovereignty from the various democratically elected national governments. As it stands, it's a compromise between sovereignty and direct democratic accountability; and it cannot become more democratic without the national governments surrendering more sovereignty. As it stands, it's hugely more democratic than any other international organisation and, were we to leave, we would find ourselves involved in many of the same negotiations but with far less democratic oversight.

Thus it is not the will of the people. It is the will of politicians. How can that be the peoples choice?

So a federal authoritarian state can be democratic.... Hmm not sure as the veracity of that

 

[greywolf]

Lets look generally: Germany especially is very pro individual privacy. The political landscape in the UK is more authoritarian. It is more likely that the EU will have objections over online privacy than the UK gov will.

I would like to add to this though. Whilst somethings in the EU may seem good now and things you dislike about the current UK government. The UK government you can vote out, where as the EU establishment would be much harder to change. The EU MP vote you get counts for very very little compared, and look at how much Cameron managed to achieve in change, very very little again. So I not only look at current laws, directives and regualtions but also the fact that things can change in the future too which we may be unable to change, if at all, so easily if we dislike

 

[Burnsy2023]

I think the EU has bigger worries as a result of our referendum. The concentration of power is under attack and it knows this. We have issues in Greece, Spain, Italy. We have migrant self inflicted crisis. Fiscal uncertainty, they now have a likelihood that other European nations may want to get off the burning ship.

Which is even more reason to dissuade any other nation leaving. They can't focus on those issues if the bloc reevaluates membership.

They wont have a choice on making it easy. The WTO has to be applying its rules consistently. I would trust UKIP to veto admission of Turkey.

UKIP doesn't have a say on veto, so that's irrelevant. I don't know enough about WTO rules to make a rebuttal, but if people want to drag their heels, there are always options.

Environment: Maybe we should have done that but either way, trade would force us to adopt specifications made by Europe.

Yes, without any say in what those specifications should be.

 

[Six6siX]

We don't leave things entirely to the EU though do we. We still have internal positions that debate and deal with issues that effect us as a county regardless of whether the ultimate decision comes from the EU. I doubt that leaving the EU would leave us suddenly without a system in place to manage all of the things the EU took a lead on.

Sure, in a relatively minor capacity - I just think it's being underestimated just how much things cost. Time is very expensive.

Can you imagine how long it'd take to draft up, debate, agree and pass any policy relating to immigration and emigration in our government? How many people are involved with anything like this? On all sides of the agreement both internally and externally. Extend that to short and long term trade deals, globally with countries we previously had agreements with in the EU and further afield. There is already a lot of uncertainty with the UK as it is - look at the £ value - I can't see others jumping into any deal quickly when there is a much wider EU market that can be dealt with.

Probably comes across as scaremongering but I'm just making the point that these posts saying "look how much we save!!!11" are just a little misleading as headline figures.

 

[RaohNS]

These figures again

Been discussed to death so many times. It's very unlikely we come out of a leave vote with a net saving. What it costs us to stay in the EU will just be spent again establishing and maintaining everything from scratch.

Ostensibly.

We save instantly £15bn that can then be used to secure trade deals. We pay thousands of people in Europe to allocate funds for us. We now do that ourselves.

Trade deals are complex matters. If this government hasn't the brainpower or will after an out vote we can vote them out. We can't do that with Europe. It is by its very design a closed circle of politico-elites who rarely follow the wishes and feelings of the people. To the point they find democracy a joke and believe in making people suffer for their errors.

 

[Uther]

Latest polls seem to have Leave edging ahead. Better ramp up that project fear boys.

 

[Mr Jack]

Thus it is not the will of the people. It is the will of politicians. How can that be the peoples choice?

Because we voted for the politicians? This is how representative democracies work. You vote for the politicians; the politicians make some decisions and appoint people to make others. It's not like the appointed councillors are just make arbitrary decisions without recourse to the democratically elected governments they represent.

So a federal authoritarian state can be democratic.... Hmm not sure as the veracity of that

The EU is neither federal nor authoritarian nor, come to think of it, a state.

 

[Burnsy2023]

I would like to add to this though. Whilst somethings in the EU may seem good now and things you dislike about the current UK government. The UK government you can vote out, where as the EU establishment would be much harder to change. The EU MP vote you get counts for very very little compared, and look at how much Cameron managed to achieve in change, very very little again. So I not only look at current laws, directives and regualtions but also the fact that things can change in the future too which we may be unable to change, if at all, so easily if we dislike

I think that's a fair point, but also bear in mind that EU policy also isn't a fixed thing and can be influenced as well.

 

[Glaucus]

Not the WTO nonsense again, you keep posting that and keep getting rebuttals.
Butt then again that's all yup do is post absolute nonsense not backed up with anything.
If WTO worked so well, why do Norway etc have such rubbish deals that basically comply with most of EU, whilst getting littler in return.

If we vote out, we will be signing up fir EEA the same as them. EU isn't going to offer anything better and we aren't going to screw are self totally.

 

[Mr Jack]

We save instantly £15bn that can then be used to secure trade deals. We pay thousands of people in Europe to allocate funds for us. We now do that ourselves.

Firstly, it's not £15bn, it's a bit over half that - and even that figure ignores the cost of replacing the EU's various functions.

Secondly, this is a tiny figure compared to the total government budget. Even a small decline in the economy would wipe it, whereas even the more generous forecasting suggests we'll lose around 3% of GDP as a result of Brexit so, in fact, we're almost certain to have less money to spend not more.

Finally, even if you did have this money how do you imagine you would use that money to "secure trade deals"? And, given that we will continue to contribute to the EU until we actually leave, if this money was required to "secure trade deals" that would mean that there would be a long gap between leaving the EU and getting those trade deals.

 

[RaohNS]

Which is even more reason to dissuade any other nation leaving. They can't focus on those issues if the bloc reevaluates membership.

UKIP doesn't have a say on veto, so that's irrelevant. I don't know enough about WTO rules to make a rebuttal, but if people want to drag their heels, there are always options.

Yes, without any say in what those specifications should be.

It has already started. If we leave and the EU treats us like scum, people in Europe will see what is happening unless they fall beneath their media machinations.

By the same token of the latter part of Para 1: The EU has had ample time to see it being fair and consistent. It has chosen insouciance.

UKIP does have a say, apologies to clarify UKIP MEPs would veto the Tyrks joining. If they drag their heels their economies lose hundreds of millions of pounds which affects jobs, investment, growth and diminishes the state.... We have them too

Well... We don't have any say in how Apple behaves selling products but do have a say in what our expectations are. We merely set rules.

 

[greywolf]

I think that's a fair point, but also bear in mind that EU policy also isn't a fixed thing and can be influenced as well.

Influenced but we are only one voice in 27 others.