Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (March Poll)

[Dave M]

We're not in Schengen because we're a sovereign nation who decided not to be in Schengen. In the future that will change and the EU will control 100% of our borders - they already control an awful lot of it.

So hang on, your argument for leaving the EU is not what the EU is now, or is likely to become in the foreseeable future, but what you fear may change at some point? I could make up any possible future to counter your argument but it'd be silly, wouldn't it?

Funny that isn't it? When a single market would be of advantage to British companies it doesn't happen. We've had to allow our service companies get bought by French nationalised industries, but when it comes to say, Scottish Power wanting to sell energy to France they aren't allowed to. At this rate we won't have any service companies left by the time they do introduce the single market for services.

It's a dog eat dog capitalist world, others have argued and won deals that benefit their people, our leaders for the most part have sulked in the corner. Even now it's not the UK government pushing for the single market in services but the very people you despise (the commission).

So now we have a prospect of a single market which will benefit not just the country but most likely every single one of us (by reducing bills in some areas) we choose to leave, we choose to not make any negotiations dependant on accelerating the single market proposals, and we moan about immigration - again.

That's cutting your nose off to spite your face.

 

[scorza]

So hang on, your argument for leaving the EU is not what the EU is now, or is likely to become in the foreseeable future, but what you fear may change at some point? I could make up any possible future to counter your argument but it'd be silly, wouldn't it?

We all know what direction the EU is headed - the words 'ever closer union' are embedded in every single treaty. I know Cameron thinks this won't apply to the UK in future, but even if the thin gruel deal does get signed I can't help but think of that time Tony Blair came back from somewhere (Rome?) saying he'd got an opt-out for the UK over the disastrous Charter or Fundamental Rights, only for the ECJ to rule some years later that the opt-out wasn't legally enforceable.

It's a dog eat dog capitalist world, others have argued and won deals that benefit their people, our leaders for the most part have sulked in the corner. Even now it's not the UK government pushing for the single market in services but the very people you despise (the commission).

So now we have a prospect of a single market which will benefit not just the country but most likely every single one of us (by reducing bills in some areas) we choose to leave, we choose to not make any negotiations dependant on accelerating the single market proposals, and we moan about immigration - again.

That's cutting your nose off to spite your face.

We can still access the single market without having to be governed by Brussels. One thing I can guarantee is that even if we do vote to Leave, we'll be selling stuff to the EU and buying stuff from the EU - all tariff free.

 

[Insanties_birth]

That's cutting your nose off to spite your face.

In other words just sit in the EU and do whatever they say? Have a vote against 27 other countries now and again and hope it goes your way? I feel sending a signal to the EU that they're failing with Austria and Hungary ignoring EU laws, with UK leaving and Germany / Greece being in turmoil with migration will be the right set of problems to get the EU to actually have a fire up there bum and finally be willing to renegotiate.

I'd rather stay in the EU if they was willing to compromise more but I feel jumping in and expecting a world of change is just having your head in the clouds and we're not going to see any major change. This was our chance for change, our opportunity to make it better and work for us (and others too) and they simply have different views. They feel sovereignity is a joke I guess.

 

[Burnsy2023]

We all know what direction the EU is headed - the words 'ever closer union' are embedded in every single treaty. I know Cameron thinks this won't apply to the UK in future, but even if the thin gruel deal does get signed I can't help but think of that time Tony Blair came back from somewhere (Rome?) saying he'd got an opt-out for the UK over the disastrous Charter or Fundamental Rights, only for the ECJ to rule some years later that the opt-out wasn't legally enforceable.

At the end of the day, any PM can decide not to sign a treaty. They have the final decision and all member states must agree unanimously for a treaty change to be enacted. One of the things that the PM got from the negotiations was that the UK could opt out of this closer integration and that gives him bargaining power to get concessions for the UK if he decides that's right.

We can still access the single market without having to be governed by Brussels. One thing I can guarantee is that even if we do vote to Leave, we'll be selling stuff to the EU and buying stuff from the EU - all tariff free.

The European commission has been very clear that this will not be the case. We cannot be part of the single market without freedom of movement, indeed the four freedoms are what defines the single market.

The EU has no incentive and all the reasons not to make any exception on this.

 

[deuse]

Those facts do not predict the future nor do they prove what may of happened if we took another approach.

We're only allowed X amount of representatives. And it won't go higher but lower as more countries join.
Read the facts.

 

[Uther]

"The 19-mile barbed wire fence built on Macedonia's border to stop a human tide of migrants as Greece is told it faces being 'sacrificed' to save the EU"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Mediterranean-year-total-six-months-2015.html

Looking at the pictures there's fences both sides of the boarder?. And the first picture

Merkels legacy.

 

[Emlyn_Dewar]

Seems like the same thing, with hate-fuelled nonsense from either side, as we had with Scottish Independence.

Shut up and eat your cereal.
In.

 

[scorza]

At the end of the day, any PM can decide not to sign a treaty. They have the final decision and all member states must agree unanimously for a treaty change to be enacted. One of the things that the PM got from the negotiations was that the UK could opt out of this closer integration and that gives him bargaining power to get concessions for the UK if he decides that's right.

... and yet they sign up to treaty after treaty, sometimes with specific opt-outs for the UK which turn out not to be legally binding. Didn't Cameron promise us a referendum on any further treaty change, then signed up to Lisbon regardless?

The European commission has been very clear that this will not be the case. We cannot be part of the single market without freedom of movement, indeed the four freedoms are what defines the single market.

The EU has no incentive and all the reasons not to make any exception on this.

Firstly, I don't believe them - the EC has a position which is for the UK to stay in, so of course they're going to say anything that makes that more likely. Secondly I said access to the single market, not be part of it.

What does it say about the EU if their biggest supporters think that they're going to be so spiteful as to cut us out of the single market if British voters decided they wanted to leave? Why would we want to be part of an organisation like that?

 

[Burnsy2023]

We're only allowed X amount of representatives. And it won't go higher but lower as more countries join.
Read the facts.

And yet France and Germany dictate much of the EU's policy. This is diplomacy and politics at the end of the day and the best people at that have solid relationships with partners.

 

[Burnsy2023]

... and yet they sign up to treaty after treaty, sometimes with specific opt-outs for the UK which turn out not to be legally binding. Didn't Cameron promise us a referendum on any further treaty change, then signed up to Lisbon regardless?

Well that's a question for the PM rather than the EU.

Firstly, I don't believe them - the EC has a position which is for the UK to stay in, so of course they're going to say anything that makes that more likely. Secondly I said access to the single market, not be part of it.

The EC has no incentive to make concessions. If anything they have a motivation to prevent other member states from thinking of leaving too, so don't expect any easy negotiations. As for access to the single market, it's effectively the same. Both Switzerland still has freedom of movement requirements for access to the single market.

What does it say about the EU if their biggest supporters think that they're going to be so spiteful as to cut us out of the single market if British voters decided they wanted to leave? Why would we want to be part of an organisation like that?

If we're going to create a load of financial and political hardship for the rest of the EU, we've hardly got the moral high ground.

 

[scorza]

The EC has no incentive to make concessions. If anything they have a motivation to prevent other member states from thinking of leaving too, so don't expect any easy negotiations. As for access to the single market, it's effectively the same. Both Switzerland still has freedom of movement requirements for access to the single market.

Free trade with the world's fifth largest economy isn't an incentive? They have every incentive. If being in the EU is as good as you say, why would other members even want to leave?

Switzerland is a sovereign nation and have made their own trading arrangements with the EU, but what is right for Switzerland may not necessarily be right for us.

If we're going to create a load of financial and political hardship for the rest of the EU, we've hardly got the moral high ground.

Moral high ground - what? How is leaving the EU, which the Treaty of Libson acknowledges is the right of every member state, an immoral action?

 

[Dave M]

Seems like the same thing, with hate-fuelled nonsense from either side, as we had with Scottish Independence.

Shut up and eat your cereal.
In.

I was surprised when I visited the highlands last year, almost a year after the referendum, there were still campaign banners for both sides all over the place. It seemed the referendum did nothing to settle matters and just caused bitterness.

 

[Freddie1980]

I would prefer to stay in the EU but I would want it to return closer to a common market rather then a quasi-hybrid political state we have at the moment. I was genuinely in two minds but I've looked at the deal Cameron got and frankly it's poor to much of it is vague with no firm dates and deadlines (e.g. a commitment to reducing red tape on business) and it won't get auctioned and will get forgotten about after a few years anyway. It's also embarrassing the Great Britain has to go to the EU with a begging bowl and ask for token gestures, as sovereign country and one that has the 5th biggest economy in the world we should be the ones dictating the play not the other way around.

If we're going to create a load of financial and political hardship for the rest of the EU, we've hardly got the moral high ground.

There's plenty going on in the EU that causing a greater degree of financial and political hardships then a potential breakaway by the UK (Euro crisis springs to mind).

 

[Burnsy2023]

Free trade with the world's fifth largest economy isn't an incentive? They have every incentive. If being in the EU is as good as you say, why would other members even want to leave?

It's not as simple as that, if it's put a trade barrier and help shore up the stability of the EU, it's an easy choice. Other EU members don't want us to leave, it serves nobody except for some of the UK.

Switzerland is a sovereign nation and have made their own trading arrangements with the EU, but what is right for Switzerland may not necessarily be right for us.

You're assuming they had a choice.

Moral high ground - what? How is leaving the EU, which the Treaty of Libson acknowledges is the right of every member state, an immoral action?

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

 

[deuse]

And yet France and Germany dictate much of the EU's policy. This is diplomacy and politics at the end of the day and the best people at that have solid relationships with partners.

You don't know how the EU system works even though you've had hard facts.
And I don't think you ever will. I think it's called BLIND love for something.

 

[Burnsy2023]

You don't know how the EU system works even though you've had hard facts.
And I don't think you ever will. I think it's called BLIND love for something.

Or perhaps your agenda is stopping you seeing another perspective?

 

[413x]

To me the eu would be much better as just western countries. And then an EC style format for rest
The cultural economic differences between the UK and Romania for example are just too great for this level of integration

I mean the euro is a step too far
And it's only going to get worse

Look at the migrant problem we would have had if we were in the free border plan

A eu ideal that has just fallen apart.


Id be interested to know how many pro eu people have some sort of personal interest (work abroad, house abroad, partner abroad) etc etc

 

[Mr Jack]

the only way for the UK to get a bigger say is to invade a few countries.

Another thing that occurred to me:

Over the last European Parliamentary term (2009-14),a majority of British MEPs(across UK party lines) opposed 576 motions out of a total 1,936 that were put before the European Parliament .Of those 576 motions, 485 were nonetheless approved by the rest of the Parliament despite the opposition of a majority of British MEPs.

Let's put this another way, British MEPs, representing around 12-13% of the EU's population, and one of 28 nations, blocked 16% of the legislation they wanted to block. What's so bad about that? That seems like about the kind of level of influence we should expect to have.

 

[scorza]

Another thing that occurred to me:



Let's put this another way, British MEPs, representing around 12-13% of the EU's population, and one of 28 nations, blocked 16% of the legislation they wanted to block. What's so bad about that? That seems like about the kind of level of influence we should expect to have.

Well if we weren't in the EU then British MPs in our Parliament could block 100% of the legislation they don't want to become law. That's the kind of influence I expect us to have.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

Id be interested to know how many pro eu people have some sort of personal interest (work abroad, house abroad, partner abroad) etc etc

Not just work abroad but if you work locally in a company that does a lot of small export trade sales you could suffer depending on what happens. Even if it turns out that there is just an introduction of a few forms to fill out when ordering between countries, it can be enough to put those customers off ordering from the UK.

Nothing is set in stone at the moment, especially whether we will have free trade (which i doubt we will) if we left. Many large foreign companies set up here and use the UK as a gateway to trade with the rest of the EU. I wonder how many jobs will be affected.

People who see nothing but positives on one side of the argument are blind. I personally would rather sleep with the devil i know rather than the devil i dont in this particular point in time.