Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (March Poll)

[Mr Jack]

For me the, stay campaign is very negative.

Some of that is simply the nature of the beast. If we were discussing joining the EU campaign then all the benefits of the EU would be positive points that the In campaign could make; but because we're already in the EU many of the positive points are converted to negative ones about leaving.

For instance, if we were campaigning to join I'd be saying "joining the EU would boost our economy by around 4-8% over the next five years" instead of saying "leaving the EU is likely to reduce economic growth by around 4-8% over the next five years". Instead of saying "every UK citizen will gain the right to live and work anywhere in Europe", I'm saying "you will face new barriers to living and working in the EU if we leave" and so on.

 

[StriderX]

Yep, the remain will likely be young people who cant be assed.

 

[Danthus]

So rise above scaremongering and tell us your (realistic, evidence based) positive vision? I'm all ears...

Isn't that the real issue, how is anyone meant take a position given what we are being told.

If we leave, I don't think much will change to be honest.

 

[Tunney]

Why's that an impossibility now? I'm struggling to see how anything more coherent is going to magically appear .

I think it's bizarre that you expect a disparate group of organisations, without a clear leader, to deliver a clear and cohesive argument.

The EU referendum is interesting because it's not the usual left vs. right debate. Both campaigns are drawing in people who share the same opinion on the UK's place in the EU but for very different reasons. It's unsurprising that posters in this thread don't think that there's a clear message yet.

 

[scorza]

Isn't that the real issue, how is anyone meant take a position given what we are being told.

If we leave, I don't think much will change to be honest.

It's called judgement, it's fundamentally the same process you go through when you decide if you need to take an umbrella with you when you leave the house. Yes you can look at forecasts, but at best they're often overly simplistic and at worst down-right wrong.

 

[scorza]

What's incoherent about the sovereignty argument?

 

[Tunney]

I'm not saying everyone on either side should be 'on message', but none of the leave campaigns has managed it... and presenting a coherent argument which rallies support would be pretty sensible given they're competing for the official designation. There can be a clear and cohesive argument without there being uniformity across everyone on that side. On the remain side we know who the official group will be.

Agreed. I don't see any of the campaigns delivering a clear message until they have the platform and resources available to the official campaign though.

 

[V F]

Yep, the remain will likely be young people who cant be assed.

They don't know anything different. It is what they grew up with.

 

[[TW]Fox]

What's incoherent about the sovereignty argument?

It's just a meaningless appeal to emotion.

BUT THE SOVEREIGNTY!!!

Yea but what? How does it actually affect our lives rather than just sound all wonderfully patriotic?

 

[Skunkworks]

Lay it out for me and I'll tell you - your understanding of it, at least. I'm not going to guess what exactly you're referring to because 'the sovereignty argument' is incredibly vague in of itself.

Wiki says:

Sovereignty is understood in jurisprudence as the full right and power of a governing body to govern itself without any interference from outside sources or bodies. In political theory, sovereignty is a substantive term designating supreme authority over some polity.

Sounds to me like having to defer some decisions to Brussels would be a reduction in Sovereignty.

 

[Skunkworks]

Does Brussels have the ability to override UK laws?

 

[Skunkworks]

Explain the problem, and how Brexit is a solution.

Problem:
EU overriding laws we make in our own interested and replacing with laws that sort-of best fit a collective of very different countries that may be counter to our best interests.

How Brexit is a solution:
EU couldn't do the above.

 

[Danthus]

Problem:
EU overriding laws we make in our own interested and replacing with laws that sort-of best fit a collective of very different countries that may be counter to our best interests.

How Brexit is a solution:
EU couldn't do the above.

Which laws?

 

[Skunkworks]

Any future laws.

 

[V F]

I'm always amazed how people want to be tied to a dictatorship that has unelected officials that you cannot kick out.

 

[Danthus]

Any future laws.

What about existing laws?

 

[Conscript]

I'm always amazed how people want to be tied to a dictatorship that has unelected officials that you cannot kick out.

You mean the MEPs that we were all given the opportunity to vote on in 2014, and will get another opportunity to vote on in 2019?

I've heard people trot this out before, then when you ask them how they voted in the MEP elections "oh, I didn't bother", "I don't care, it doesn't matter".

Don't confuse apathy to vote with not being given the opportunity to vote.

 

[Danthus]

You mean the MEPs that we were all given the opportunity to vote on in 2014?

Who voted for these people?

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/european-council/president/cabinet/

 

[Roar87]

You mean the MEPs that we were all given the opportunity to vote on in 2014, and will get another opportunity to vote on in 2019?

I've heard people trot this out before, then when you ask them how they voted in the MEP elections "oh, I didn't bother", "I don't care, it doesn't matter".

Don't confuse apathy to vote with not being given the opportunity to vote.

Yeah we voted for some of the MEP's, it's just that there's every other countries MEP's there deciding our laws as well. And funnily enough what Spain wants is probably different from what we want.

 

[Conscript]

Who voted for these people?

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/european-council/president/cabinet/

Who voted for these?

http://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/about-lords/lords-types/

Of course there are unelected officials. But VFs statement seemed typical of people who are under the mistaken impression that they have absolutely no say in the formation of the EU parliament.

Yeah we voted for some of the MEP's, it's just that there's every other countries MEP's there deciding our laws as well. And funnily enough what Spain wants is probably different from what we want.

True, but I wonder how many people who bemoan the EU parliament go the trouble of thinking about who they are voting for, or lobbying their MEP to speak on their behalf. The system is by no means perfect, but the opportunity to engage with it is there; to call it a "dictatorship" is hyperbole.