Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (May Poll)

[muon]

There are 196 sovereign nations on Earth, only 28 of them seem to think that having free movement of people between them, courts that can override their own and having legislation proposed by unelected bureaucrats is a good idea.

Also there are 50 countries in Europe, so whilst 'most' are technically in the EU, just under half of them aren't.

Sorry, I edited my post to say European countries. Since the EU covers certain countries by definition.

Also that's misleading. We both know many of the remaining countries want to be in the EU. The post was about what other countries think about the EU, i.e. is it worth it or not and looking at their actions as an indicator.

 

[estebanrey]

Sorry, I edited my post to say European countries. Since the EU covers certain countries by definition.

Also that's misleading. We both know many of the remaining countries want to be in the EU.

You said their are 'many more' countries in the EU than out of it, even just in Europe there are 28 countries in it and 22 out of it. That isn't "many more".

The countries that want to join it all stand to gain more in subsidies than they would put in, of course they want a join.

 

[muon]

You said their are 'many more' countries in the EU than out of it, even just in Europe there are 28 countries in it and 22 out of it. That isn't "many more".

The countries that want to join it all stand to gain more in subsidies than they would put in, of course they want a join.

In which case feel free to limit it to the wealthiest EU nations. Will skew it in my favour.

You can't include the poorer nations in your maths and then dismiss their true opinion of the EU.

edit: The original poster had correctly selected Switzerland and Norway. Not the poorer nations.

 

[thep02]

Yes. These are troubling times for the uk. Buttering up to terrorists sympathizer.

Agreed I don't know how how Khan can stomach being beside one of the architects of the attack on Syria via the use of proxy terrorists.

 

[kitkat2015]

Because the UK is pretty damn good as it is today, economic growth is decent, incomes are rising faster than other comparable nations, unemployment is low. I see no reason to change things (that is up to you).

Whilst I will present economic benefits and costs of being in the EU, I want to know if you will review the methodology and logic before dismissing them. Then explaining why they are wrong and what your prediction is predicated on.

Arguments based on prejudice won't get any points from me.

I'm not looking to gain any points from you.

The points you have made about the uk hasn't been from being in the eu. The eu takes more from is than out gives us.

Time to leave.

 

[inogen]

This is what gripes me about the leave campaign, it seems to be swarmed with under-educated, angry people. There are good reasons to leave but they're over-shadowed by stupid people spouting stupid nonsense that make you question if they understand what they're on about. Meanwhile we're seeing news outlets publish stories on doom and gloom if we leave and yes yes, I expect they're all in the pocket of the EU etc. This is all one ridiculous referendum and I can't wait til it's over.

Yes, it's horrific. The only reason it was called was to mitigate the UKIP vote in favour of the Tories in the last election. It's a dangerous political gamble by Cameron, who should have been called out for it in the first place. Most of the leave campaign (including Boris) are only in it for the potential political gains rather than any altruistic reasons.

Voting leave should require some basic understanding of the repercussions of doing so, instead, most posts I've read on here (and other forums to be fair) are nonsensical claptrap repeating garbage that's been spouted by the leave campaign in all it's glory, immigration, £350m a day (or whatever it is), sovereignty, laws etc, it's all nonsense that stands up to no scrutiny whatsoever.

Unless you understand what you're voting for, vote remain for godsake. If you don't understand what might happen, just stick with what we've got.

 

[n111ck]

Agreed I don't know how how Khan can stomach being beside one of the architects of the attack on Syria via the use of proxy terrorists.

Really? Id imagine he's quite envious.

 

[Dis86]

Well Switzerland had an application in place until March 2016. They even have free movement of people for the newest EU nations. But you are right that public opinion has now swung massively the other way.

Norway, yes have always been against joining the EU. Someone else will have to tell me if they have free movement of citizens, I would have thought yes.

However, if it is a question of let's look at what other people do, many more European countries are in the EU than out of it.

Remind me which European countries have the highest standards of living and per capita income? Oh and life expectancy?

 

[muon]

I'm not looking to gain any points from you.

The points you have made about the uk hasn't been from being in the eu. The eu takes more from is than out gives us.

Time to leave.

Being in the EU since 1973 sure hasn't stopped it from happening. Who knows, it might have even helped it happen (the evidence suggests a free trade and movement bloc has a net positive economic benefit).

Why change something that clearly is working pretty well for the UK as it stands.

Remind me which European countries have the highest standards of living and per capita income? Oh and life expectancy?

I didn't realise not being in the EU gave Norway massive natural resource endowments. For Norway being in the EU or not wouldn't have changed that.

Switzerland is a bit different as it is a very unique economy.

I can guarantee, the UK won't be like Norway or Switzerland, by leaving the EU, in any shape whatsoever. The UK is more like the large European economies which is relatively diversified.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...per_capita#List_of_countries_and_dependencies

Luxembourg actually has higher incomes than both (means just as little as your point tbh).

 

[nightwish]

If your so damn clever, give us all your reasons why we should want to even think about voting yes?

You know one of the reasons why I'm voting remain? Because of people like you. Seriously. In the beginning, I was on the fence, but it's the unpleasant ravings of Brexiteers such as yourself that convinced me to stay. I imagine I'm not the only one.

 

[muon]

I'm not looking to gain any points from you.

The points you have made about the uk hasn't been from being in the eu. The eu takes more from is than out gives us.

Time to leave.

Economics isn't a zero sum game.

 

[Dis86]

I didn't realise not being in the EU gave Norway massive natural resource endowments. For Norway being in the EU or not wouldn't have changed that.

Switzerland is a bit different as it is a very unique economy.

I can guarantee, the UK won't be like Norway or Switzerland by leaving the EU in any shape whatsoever. The UK is more like the large European economies which is relatively diversified.

So has not being in the EU hurt those countries? No. The UK has similar natural resource levels as Norway. Are we as wealthy, healthy or happy as the Norwegians? No.

Switzerland probably couldn't exist as it does in the EU. It's economy just wouldn't be viable.

 

[muon]

So has not being in the EU hurt those countries? No. The UK has similar natural resource levels as Norway. Are we as wealthy, healthy or happy as the Norwegians? No.

Maybe not is the answer at best. Norway perhaps could be wealthier than it is today by being the EU. But no point hypothesising over that.

The UK is not like Norway? Natural resources per capita numbers aren't even close.

Norway has a population of only 5m. The natural resources go a very long way when your population is so small.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_production#Countries

Norway produces double the oil and oil equivalents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_natural_gas_production#Natural_gas_production

Over double in gas.

It is more akin to Qatar, Abu Dhabi etc. in terms of how wealth is derived.

 

[Nutella33]

No? The two share the same stance on EU membership, why wouldn't they share a platform? Should Tory and labour have opposing views just because?

Isn't it odd then that JC isn't around and refuses to share a platform on this issue? Especially with his nicer kind of none personal politics?

 

[Dis86]

Maybe not is the answer at best. Norway perhaps could be wealthier than it is today by being the EU. But no point hypothesising over that.

The UK is not like Norway? Natural resources per capita numbers aren't even close.

Norway has a population of only 5m. The natural resources go a very long way when your population is so small.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_production#Countries

Norway produces double the oil and oil equivalents.

It is more akin to Qatar, Abu Dhabi etc. in terms of how wealth is derived.

So...hold on, limiting population is the key? You mean that thing we can't do whilst we're in the EU? There we go, another argument for out. And don't just look at production, look at original reserves. Britain's oil wealth was frittered away on a select few.

 

[muon]

So...hold on, limiting population is the key? You mean that thing we can't do whilst we're in the EU? There we go, another argument for out. And don't just look at production, look at original reserves. Britain's oil wealth was frittered away on a select few.

Why is limiting production the key? I never said that. How would that even help. (edit: misread, i see you said population now. uk has always had a far far larger population, population growth isn't massively dissimilar)

Even in total reserves, Norway is way ahead per capita. Always has been.

Let's say for a second the reserves were wasted rather than just going into general government expenditure (as it was). How does that impact whether being in the EU going forward is good idea or not?

The UK will ultimately rely on trade, services and manufacturing going forward. Not on dwindling gas/oil reserves and a non-existent sovereign wealth fund.

http://www.swfinstitute.org/sovereign-wealth-fund-rankings/

 

[muon]

Here are Norway and UK population trends over time.

https://www.google.co.uk/publicdata...0000&tend=1401404400000&hl=en&dl=en&ind=false

Not too dissimilar. It is all about Norway getting far more natural resources per capita to begin with.

 

[dalehitchy1]

Can the brexiters explain something for me. I constantly Hear on here and other forums (mainly the fail mail) brexiters listing other countries doing well outside the EU (Switzerland, Norway etc).

I hear this all the time as a reason to leave the EU. But as far as I'm aware the main 2 reasons the leave want to exit is because 1: We will loose our sovereignty... And 2: We want to control our borders.

So with Norway and Switzerland being in the EEA and being subject to the majority of EU law, and having to accept free movement of people... Why do I hear these countries being used as a prime example of what we could achieve if we leave? Are brexiters really happy with leaving the EU and joining the EEA?

 

[Dis86]

Here are Norway and UK population trends over time.

https://www.google.co.uk/publicdata...0000&tend=1401404400000&hl=en&dl=en&ind=false

Not too dissimilar. It is all about Norway getting far more natural resources per capita to begin with.

Lol what?! The UK has nearly exponential growth! Norway has barely any.

You're right about resource density however as you yourself pointed out the UK has other industry. Norway doesn't. Norway has invested it's oil income wisely. The UK hasn't. We however have different commitments that the Norway don't because of our eu membership.

 

[muon]

Lol what?! The UK has nearly exponential growth! Norway has barely any.

You're right about resource density however as you yourself pointed out the UK has other industry. Norway doesn't. Norway has invested it's oil income wisely. The UK hasn't. We however have different commitments that the Norway don't because of our eu membership.

Look at the numbers. Norway actually has faster population growth.

Google doesn't let me change the axes to show it more clearly.

So unless you have a time machine to go back and build a massive sovereign wealth fund (which wouldn't be anywhere near as large as Norway's per capita) what exactly are you proposing.

A good diversified economy benefits from being in a globalised world with minimal barriers to the flow of capital, goods, service and people. Being in the EU gives the UK that for the EU bloc. We would also have to negotiate bilateral agreements with the EU, US, China, India, Japan etc.