Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (May Poll)

[RaohNS]

oh god. must be a troll.

Says the "The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote" troll with constant rofl and two word posts

 

[[TW]Fox]

Nobody is arguing that the UK Government couldn't introduce legislation that protects workers, the environment, and consumers in the way that EU legislation has. They are pointing out that decades of not doing it - while making noises that they don't like the current legislation - means that the balance of probability isn't in favour of these sorts of protections remaining in place in the event of a Leave vote.

Especially after the almost amusing discovery that one of the few bits of EU law we did avoid passing into UK law was the consumer warranty thing

 

[Caged]

Yes, but any attempt to dismantle existing protections means public outrage and that that they are out at the next general election. This is, to me, the heart of the matter. I'm bored with the economic guesswork and more interested in locally accountable democracy.

Does it though? I think the electorate would see an attack on workers rights, swallow the spin, assume that since they are "hard workers" that it wouldn't affect them and then happily accept reforms. Look at the numbers of people who are happy to condemn strikes before they've even figured out what the strike is about. After all, we need to ensure we support the wealth creators don't we

If you asked the electorate if they fancied cheaper water rates in exchange for beaches turning into open sewers there would likely be an insignificant number who's attitude would be "don't like the seaside anyway, I'll just fly to Spain".

Broadly speaking the electorate are idiots and I wouldn't trust them to campaign for replacing environmental protections that come with EU membership.

 

[RaohNS]

Before the EU?

Here you go. The ECSC was created in 1951 and the EEC in 1958 with founding members (Belgium, France, Italy, Luxumbourg, Netherlands and West Germany).

This is from a slightly old paper so only goes up to 2003.

My days *puts hand on head*

Before the EU?

The ECSC was created in 1951 and the EEC in 1958

That's right before the EU. No mention of an unrequested history lesson on two epitaphs that bear no correlation to the political cajoler we have now.

It has been established that the original 70's vote was not a vote for what is happening now. Now the EU has a big problem.

Its doing what any historical and self interested party/country or individual has done before. Trying to ensure its own self preservation.

 

[Caged]

The argument of "we did fine before the EU so we will do fine without it now" is meaningless unless you want to address the fact that it's now 2016 and not 1950. If you can't see the fundamentally different world we operate in and think that what worked then will work now then you haven't thought this through.

 

[RaohNS]

Broadly speaking the electorate are idiots and I wouldn't trust them to campaign for replacing environmental protections that come with EU membership.

Churchill said something similar too. Everyone is an idiot to someone. Some more than others mind you.

Churchill was no hero though. Lots of skeletons in his closet that are behind his bullet proof vest of "on the beaches" and V for Victory.

 

[RaohNS]

The argument of "we did fine before the EU so we will do fine without it now" is meaningless unless you want to address the fact that it's now 2016 and not 1950. If you can't see the fundamentally different world we operate in and think that what worked then will work now then you haven't thought this through.

The trade still happened. If semantics are considered we could further discuss more logic to the above unnecessary image. Like this thread however it would be a vicious circle and only an anomaly would draw any ire

 

[muon]

My days *puts hand on head*




That's right before the EU. No mention of an unrequested history lesson on two epitaphs that bear no correlation to the political cajoler we have now.

It has been established that the original 70's vote was not a vote for what is happening now. Now the EU has a big problem.

Its doing what any historical and self interested party/country or individual has done before. Trying to ensure its own self preservation.

The EU since 2009 has had some economic problems and the UK is coming out top (something which you wish to gamble on).

How long do you think major european economies will be in the doldrums? When they recover and start growing again, will the UK want to join again, it wouldn't be possible. Once again we could see what happens in the 50s to 70s, Europe race ahead due to an economic union benefiting all economies within it.

Does the EU hold economic growth back in the UK? Only one economist has piblicly come out saying the UK economy will be better out of the EU.

The argument of "we did fine before the EU so we will do fine without it now" is meaningless unless you want to address the fact that it's now 2016 and not 1950. If you can't see the fundamentally different world we operate in and think that what worked then will work now then you haven't thought this through.

We actually weren't doing that great before the EU!

 

[Caged]

The trade still happened. If semantics are considered we could further discuss more logic to the above unnecessary image. Like this thread however it would be a vicious circle and only an anomaly would draw any ire

I do not know what you are saying here, sorry.

The trade still happened in a 1950s world. What did the trade look like then? What does the trade look like today? What other countries have become large trading partners in that time?

You can't just dismiss this one with "it worked 60+ years ago".

 

[[TW]Fox]

The trade still happened. If semantics are considered we could further discuss more logic to the above unnecessary image. Like this thread however it would be a vicious circle and only an anomaly would draw any ire

And trade would still happen without the EU. Nobody claims it wouldn't. It just wouldn't be quite as easy or as low cost.

 

[Caged]

And trade would still happen without the EU. Nobody claims it wouldn't. It just wouldn't be quite as easy or as low cost.

And would likely come with conditions attached that require maintaining the most hated elements of being in the EU but without a seat at the table.

 

[kitkat2015]

Before the EU?

Here you go. The ECSC was created in 1951 and the EEC in 1958 with founding members (Belgium, France, Italy, Luxumbourg, Netherlands and West Germany).

This is from a slightly old paper so only goes up to 2003.

UK growth was abysmal relative to our neighbours before we joined the EU. Right now the UK is doing quite well versus the EU, and we want to leave and see what happens with our fingers crossed.

Wow you are so pro eu it's unbelievable.

You must really hate the uk to want to hand it over to the germans so readily is a joke.

How does it feel being a traitor to the UK?

 

[Chris Wilson]

Don't feed the troll. This is what you're attempting to reason with:

https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/search.php?do=finduser&userid=176787&searchthreadid=18729381

A person who equates EU membership with letting the Germans win the war. You won't use logic and reason to change that sort of opinion that was formed by exposure to spirit based paints and head trauma.

Thanks for collating all those posts, far from being the product of solvent abuse they speak reason in spades to many. People should scan through them and consider their veracity and impact on how they vote

 

[muon]

Wow you are so pro eu it's unbelievable.

You must really hate the uk to want to hand it over to the germans so readily is a joke.

How does it feel being a traitor to the UK?

I don't know about the traitor bit. You can have that opinion if you want.

But I feel pretty good thanks. I'd like to see a prosperous UK.

 

[Chris Wilson]

And would likely come with conditions attached that require maintaining the most hated elements of being in the EU but without a seat at the table.

The table is in turmoil, the food biased to curry,and the diners can't pay their bills.

 

[Caged]

lmao hand it over to the Germans, calling people with opposing view traitors, claiming the EU is a Communist entity. Someone really likes using certain words but lacks any idea of when and how to use them.

The table is in turmoil, the food biased to curry,and the diners can't pay their bills.

Could you try fewer riddles and more rebuttals?

 

[RaohNS]

The EU since 2009 has had some economic problems and the UK is coming out top (something which you wish to gamble on).

We actually weren't doing that great before the EU!

Since 2009 it has had devastating problems with finance. You have five medium to large economies in a mess. The troika sees fit to lend billions more to that country, but then it doesn't go back to that country, much of it is just paid back directly to itself and then it charges the borrowing nation state for the privilege.

We may not have been doing that great before the EU if a % rate is to be believed at least, but we could be Greece. A country where democracy was totally circumvented (was actually laughed at) and where a nation and its people are being allowed to hang. That is not right any way you look at it (neither of the two paragraphs above actually).

I do not know what you are saying here, sorry.

The trade still happened in a 1950s world. What did the trade look like then? What does the trade look like today? What other countries have become large trading partners in that time?

You can't just dismiss this one with "it worked 60+ years ago".

Trade happened in a year in 207AD, 250BC etc. Look, I know I appear to be some anti-miser rambling on about something incoherent in terms of my view of the economic argument. That has no basis here. But there is contrary to belief a lot of what I am saying should not be dismissed so quickly.

The point I am making is quintessentially people are customers in all colours. If customers want something, trade is going to happen. We can go to two extremes: end of month I want a new iPhone, trade is there to support that - Criminal in prison wants a pack of coke smuggled in, there will be a trade. Where there is demand, there is supply: one of the tenets of capitalism. The out vote as a result of that and the threat of impact on trade is purely that - a threat.

For the record, I didn't. I came at it from the view of the EU, not the ESCS or EC. There is no intrinsic link between those throwbacks and what was now. Two are history and one is present. By that token, disagreeing with that puts you in disagreement with some of your stated viewpoint iyswim.

And trade would still happen without the EU. Nobody claims it wouldn't. It just wouldn't be quite as easy or as low cost.

You wouldn't think so with the last X pages here.

It wouldn't or couldn't? That is the difference between a positive approach and a negative. In this zeitgeist this thread has polar opposites and those waiting to take the fall based on what they think is for them and their family. The self preservation thing. Hierarchy of needs and all.

 

[Caged]

Do you expect our current politicians to be able to negotiate a trading deal with the EU that doesn't see us conceding on any areas we feel are sovereignty issues and without any tariffs being put in place?

Bearing in mind these are the same politicians that did such a bad job at negotiating with the EU recently. I'm all for optimism but there's that and there's fantasy.

 

[muon]

Since 2009 it has had devastating problems with finance. You have five medium to large economies in a mess. The troika sees fit to lend billions more to that country, but then it doesn't go back to that country, much of it is just paid back directly to itself and then it charges the borrowing nation state for the privilege.

We may not have been doing that great before the EU if a % rate is to be believed at least, but we could be Greece. A country where democracy was totally circumvented (was actually laughed at) and where a nation and its people are being allowed to hang. That is not right any way you look at it (neither of the two paragraphs above actually).

So over 60 years of history you focus on 7 years (where the UK was also badly affected, and one would argue was a perpetrator of the crisis).

Trade happened in a year in 207AD, 250BC etc. Look, I know I appear to be some anti-miser rambling on about something incoherent in terms of my view of the economic argument. That has no basis here. But there is contrary to belief a lot of what I am saying should not be dismissed so quickly.

The point I am making is quintessentially people are customers in all colours. If customers want something, trade is going to happen. We can go to two extremes: end of month I want a new iPhone, trade is there to support that - Criminal in prison wants a pack of coke smuggled in, there will be a trade. Where there is demand, there is supply: one of the tenets of capitalism. The out vote as a result of that and the threat of impact on trade is purely that - a threat.

For the record, I didn't. I came at it from the view of the EU, not the ESCS or EC. There is no intrinsic link between those throwbacks and what was now. Two are history and one is present. By that token, disagreeing with that puts you in disagreement with some of your stated viewpoint iyswim.

You might be surprised to know that economic growth in that era was very low. It wasn't until the agricultural revolution and industrial revolution that countries and people started getting richer. It is also when trade increased substantially. Trade volumes were very low when you go that far back. The UK was a little unique in that the Empire allowed higher trade than a country normally achieved in the 19th and early 20th century.

I am including ECC to get enough data to show what a union has. Since the UK was a relatively early member of the EU itself.

You also can't decide to leave and join the EU at whim depending on the fortunes of the union at the time.

 

[RaohNS]

Do you expect our current politicians to be able to negotiate a trading deal with the EU that doesn't see us conceding on any areas we feel are sovereignty issues and without any tariffs being put in place?

Bearing in mind these are the same politicians that did such a bad job at negotiating with the EU recently.

If they can't we need to elect someone who can. That's the democracy part that some of the leave camp want to make sure is established. There are people in the EU who are totally unaccountable, unelectable (but nonetheless elected). That's the big point of the democracy principle of my view.

To combat much of the "if you leave we gunna do you in innit bruv" from a lot of these countries making these threats, we thankfully have a lot of legislation that has been agreed all around the world (even by the Countries making the threats) at the WTO, UN to name a few. We could even go to the detail of NATO too but its not relevant because of what the requirement is.

Without going into a smaller and more localised element - France charges an export fee of £500 per Renault car. If this is unfair and other nations

As others have said the UK is doing better than all, do we want to risk that? Well if we are doing so well... the EU wants something of what we have! I think I would worry if someone said to me: tomorrow Raoh you are going to loose 10-14% of your salary for the year well... I don't have the luxury of the EU there of £125bn odd billion.