Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (May Poll)

[Caged]

But those are the politicians we would be going into negotiations with. There is no chance to replace them/the entire political system before the impact of a Leave vote are felt.

The same people responsible for the 'thin gruel' deal would be the ones negotiating our continued trade with the EU without tariff and without having to accept any conditions that can be seen as an attack on sovereignty. That is a fanciful situation to put forward as a likely outcome.

 

[RaohNS]

So over 60 years of history you focus on 7 years (where the UK was also badly affected, and one would argue was a perpetrator of the crisis).

You might be surprised to know that economic growth in that era was very low. It wasn't until the agricultural revolution and industrial revolution that countries and people started getting richer.

I am including ECC to get enough data to show what a union has. Since the UK was a relatively early member of the EU itself.

You also can't decide to leave and join the EU at whim depending on the fortunes of the union at the time.

You can focus on any era you like. The UK wasn't the perpetrator, it was a collective action by a group of get out of jail free people.

Economic growth was slow in that time due to a multitude of factors. Industry shifts, spending trends, the movement of households from one income to two. You can't just state a point without the other things. Blaming it on one snippet does not give a bigger picture. More importantly come to think of it; nor does it portray the truth.

We could turn this then into ignoring the EC completely and instead having a discussion on the EEA. We would arrive at the same position.

If the ships on fire. Well I would certainly rather take a dip and then swim to shore. Having said that last week when I tried it I really did almost drown. An ironic thought come reality that.

Anyways, its way past my bed time.

 

[Narj]

If the ships on fire. Well I would certainly rather take a dip and then swim to shore. Having said that last week when I tried it I really did almost drown. An ironic thought come reality that.

Anyways, its way past my bed time.

Meh, can't be bothered to rant anymore, but no malice towards "remainers", you're entitled to your views. I just see a much better future outside the EU where "helping" doesn't equal my taxes being diverted outside of the UK to prop up basket cases in a disparate EU. I also quite like being able to kick out the knob-heads making our laws every 5 years!

I suppose this thread is, for most people just enjoying a bit of cathartic venting because the large majority of us have already made up our minds..

Whatever happens, it probably won't have a massive impact on me but I'd prefer us to be independent!

On a side note, I hadn't seen this before:

Trade Unionists against the EU
http://tuaeu.co.uk/

 

[Tefal]

With good reason.

That would be somewhat circular.

 

[Amp34]

"Superiority"? Not at all. Women are less likely to read up thoroughly, more likely to go based on impulse eg System is not broken for me so I will stay.

So fear is now dismissed from any form of criticism or impact on votes? Fear is almost the entire basis of the Remain camps reasoning.

Got any actual data on that to back up your assertions? Also, what's the issue with voting remain because the "system is not broken for me"? Being happy with with what you have is a perfectly reasonable reason to vote no change.

Fear is prevelent on both sides of the divide, so you can't really argue one way or the other with that.

 

[Freakbro]

Free trade... this may be difficult for you to realise but we do not have free trade with Europe. We pay a membership fee.

LOL! That just shows your level of comprehension and shows why its hard to debate issues with people when they don't even understand what they are on about

 

[scorza]

Before the EU?

Here you go. The ECSC was created in 1951 and the EEC in 1958 with founding members (Belgium, France, Italy, Luxumbourg, Netherlands and West Germany).

This is from a slightly old paper so only goes up to 2003.

UK growth was abysmal relative to our neighbours before we joined the EU. Right now the UK is doing quite well versus the EU, and we want to leave and see what happens with our fingers crossed.

I think perhaps WW2 and the Marshall Plan may have had something to do with those figures. Britain in particular was crippled economically in the '50s because of our obligations to pay back loans to America. Then we joined the EEC and our economic growth figures got even worse...

 

[kitkat2015]

I don't know about the traitor bit. You can have that opinion if you want.

But I feel pretty good thanks. I'd like to see a prosperous UK.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/67...rules-Britain-House-of-Commons-Chris-Grayling


And you still want to vote IN.

Crazy

 

[RaohNS]

LOL! That just shows your level of comprehension and shows why its hard to debate issues with people when they don't even understand what they are on about

Or yours? We have a free trade?. Its much more complicated than that.

But no we don't have free trade.

 

[RaohNS]

Got any actual data on that to back up your assertions? Also, what's the issue with voting remain because the "system is not broken for me"? Being happy with with what you have is a perfectly reasonable reason to vote no change.

Fear is prevelent on both sides of the divide, so you can't really argue one way or the other with that.

This is GD. No evidence needed.

Fear from the out camp in the same quantities? Where? Lol

 

[[TW]Fox]

Or yours? We have a free trade?. Its much more complicated than that.

But no we don't have free trade.

Free trade is a policy followed by some international markets in which countries' governments do not restrict imports from, or exports to, other countries.

International trade left to its natural course without tariffs, quotas, or other restrictions.

We have free trade.

 

[kitkat2015]

You just see camerons smug ass face if we vote to stay, knowing he bluffed so many people & reassured himself that they haven't got the brains they where born with.

 

[RaohNS]

We have free trade.

Remind me again how much our membership is? If we pay anything to be part of the exact thing what you say it is not free.

Lets put it another way. If I am with Amazon Prime do I get free next day delivery and a few other offers (for Free?). Game set and match right there

You have also disproved Glaucus earlier statement with those pieces so thank you for that.

We can set our own deals up afterwards.

 

[Freakbro]

Remind me again how much our membership is? If we pay anything to be part of the exact thing what you say it is not free.

Lets put it another way. If I am with Amazon Prime do I get free next day delivery and a few other offers (for Free?). Game set and match right there

You have also disproved Glaucus earlier statement with those pieces so thank you for that.

We can set our own deals up afterwards.

Oh dear this is embarrassing, you do know words can have different definitions yes?

The word 'free' in this context means 'Free from Quotas, Tariffs and Restrictions'....it has nothing to do with our monetary contribution to the EU, which is something else entirely.

So yes, we have 'Free Trade'

 

[semi-pro waster]

Snipped for space
Why is such a similar deal unlikely? Are our Politicians too stupid to set these deals up themselves? I'll throw back to you the before the EU line. Things did not grind to a halt.

Who said about stopping following EU trading standards? I certainly didn't. In fact if it opens up the purchasing power even the EU can't withstand the loss of the UK opportunities.

If Britain does leave - and I hope it does - the EU will begin to crumble and the mantle of power will fall back to nation governments with a standardised set of trade deals.... allegory there-in

There's a lot of things that have happened in the intervening period of 60+ years which we as a society and as consumers have come to rely on - we could probably do without them and go back to a different model but would we like the trade off? Consumer electronics for one - many of us now rely on smart-phones and the advantages they bring for communication/entertainment/business, we managed fine without them before though so should we go back to the way things were previously? The example is just to point out that just because you've done something one way and been ok before doesn't mean you can or should go back to the same state again and think that the world hasn't changed in the meantime. If you want to opt out of something and are aware of what you will potentially be giving up (or indeed what you will be gaining) then that's fine but I'm less convinced you can always untangle situations without consequences which may be both good and bad.

I think perhaps WW2 and the Marshall Plan may have had something to do with those figures. Britain in particular was crippled economically in the '50s because of our obligations to pay back loans to America. Then we joined the EEC and our economic growth figures got even worse...

The way that table is set out doesn't facilitate the quickest of comparisons since the line the country is on appears to vary but it looks as if there were external events in the second and third columns driving a slowdown in the growth of almost all countries compared to what was occurring in the first column (i.e. I would suspect that directly after the war there was high growth for most nations as they rebuilt which then slowed down). In that context you should be looking to see how the UK did in comparison to its neighbours during the same time period.

 

[scorza]

Oh dear this is embarrassing, you do know words can have different definitions yes?

The word 'free' in this context means 'Free from Quotas, Tariffs and Restrictions'....it has nothing to do with our monetary contribution to the EU, which is something else entirely.

So yes, we have 'Free Trade'

Why be so aggressive? My hope was for a rational, logical, emotion-free debate on the benefits or otherwise of Britain's membership of the EU but this is GD /sigh. As you say words can have different meanings so there's a case that both parties are correct; we have free trade by the economic definition, but we have to pay for it so it's not free by the literal definition.

Anyway, today's important issues:

- If we leave the EU then we can scrap the VAT on fuel which the EU currently forces us to have despite the fact it's not wanted and it causes considerable financial hardship amongst the poorest in our society;
- We have learnt that if we stay in the EU then an estimated 500,000 recently arrived asylum seekers/refugees would have the right to live and work in Britain in 2020.

 

[sprite1275]

Can't see the gov scrapping any kind of tax

 

[RaohNS]

Oh dear this is embarrassing, you do know words can have different definitions yes?

The word 'free' in this context means 'Free from Quotas, Tariffs and Restrictions'....it has nothing to do with our monetary contribution to the EU, which is something else entirely.

So yes, we have 'Free Trade'

Free from quotas, tariffs and restrictions.... IF you are a member. That means it has everything to do with our paying. If it did not need us to pay why not be out of the EU and save enough money to plug the NHS deficit and STILL have free trade?

That argument is now completely debunked. Can we move on from the fallacy of "free" trade.

What are you seriously not getting about the above? Its crystal clear.

 

[RaohNS]

There's a lot of things that have happened in the intervening period of 60+ years which we as a society and as consumers have come to rely on - we could probably do without them and go back to a different model but would we like the trade off? Consumer electronics for one - many of us now rely on smart-phones and the advantages they bring for communication/entertainment/business, we managed fine without them before though so should we go back to the way things were previously? The example is just to point out that just because you've done something one way and been ok before doesn't mean you can or should go back to the same state again and think that the world hasn't changed in the meantime. If you want to opt out of something and are aware of what you will potentially be giving up (or indeed what you will be gaining) then that's fine but I'm less convinced you can always untangle situations without consequences which may be both good and bad.
.

I am not saying that though. I am saying the past is the past we can't say before x date it was fite and brimstones and now is sunshine and roses.

Essentially trade is going to occur with the UK with our £12+trillion capacity market. UK consumers will say "we want that" and a company somewhere will either straight make it happen or lobby to make it happen.

Do I want to go back? Not in all respects, but I think for an era in time this country and those in the western world lost something quite special.

 

[scorza]

Can't see the gov scrapping any kind of tax

It's odd isn't it? The Conservative party came in to power on the back of promising austerity to sort out the debt. They promised that the budgets that wouldn't be cut were the NHS and foreign aid, what they didn't say is that the EU budget, £350m a week, would also be protected - that's because we can't do anything about that. Remember when Tony Blair gave away 20% of our rebate for nothing? Remember when our contributions to the EU went up, because one member state has legalised prostitution and our GDP figures didn't include prostitution? Remember when Osborne said he wouldn't pay it, then meekly caved in and patted himself on the back for securing the rebate on the extra money despite the fact we were entitled to it all along.