Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (May Poll)

[Third Opinion]

Wow, where do we begin on the remain fear train then?

War, pensions, holiday costs, food costs, unemployment, less household money, terrorism, house prices, recession, increased austerity, lower growth, marriage breakdown (?).

That's to name just a few off the top of my head from the past few weeks.

I simply loved the war one.

I really thought I was dreaming when I saw that headline.

 

[RDM]

Against the Lords here personally. Think that AV should be used for MPs personally as AV is much more democratic that FPTP

No it isn't. In some circumstances AV can be less democratic. It also fails on the monotonocity criteria. Hence why I voted against it.

 

[scorza]

I'm not arguing against PR, just the idea that all we need to do is teak the voting system to get proportionality when you've had to completely change the whole system.

So to get PR, we'd have to forfeit the local representation of the constituency MP system. We'd also be using a system where no one was actually personally elected, the party [they currently align with] won the vote and they just got picked because they are popular with the party chairman.

Those are two huge changes to make to our system

I agree, and this is one of the main reasons why Jenkins proposed AV+ for the UK and not PR. BTW though - this business of the chums of the party chairman always being elected happens now under FPTP. Particularly with Labour - it's why you get loads of Islington-ites parachuted into northern, working-class constituencies e.g. the Millibands in Doncaster and South Shields, Blair in Sedgefield, Tristram Hunt in Stoke-on-Trent (seriously, how many other Tristrams do you reckon live in Stoke?)

 

[bayo000]

I simply loved the war one.

I really thought I was dreaming when I saw that headline.

Did you feel right awake when you saw the Third Reich one from Boris Johnson?
That's far more fetched then saying there might be some instability.

 

[EddScott]

You throw me a reason to stay and I will give you a retort. Try it

Living in Wales and as Wales receives a net benefit from being in the EU (which I believe is a "fact") and as all other arguments are based on best guess, why should I vote to leave?

 

[estebanrey]

I agree, and this is one of the main reasons why Jenkins proposed AV+ for the UK and not PR. BTW though - this business of the chums of the party chairman always being elected happens now under FPTP. Particularly with Labour - it's why you get loads of Islington-ites parachuted into northern, working-class constituencies e.g. the Millibands in Doncaster and South Shields, Blair in Sedgefield, Tristram Hunt in Stoke-on-Trent (seriously, how many other Tristrams do you reckon live in Stoke?)

I don't disagree but at least your Ed Millibands were still elected personally. It was their name on the paper that the constituents there chose and they knew who they were choosing.

Voting for a party then having the person selected after the fact it quite different.

 

[scorza]

Living in Wales and as Wales receives a net benefit from being in the EU (which I believe is a "fact") and as all other arguments are based on best guess, why should I vote to leave?

Presumably you don't want Wales to have poor regions (or NUTS) for ever do you? If the EU spends the money wisely in Wales (which I doubt it will but nm) then sooner rather than later the Welsh NUTS will transition to be a more developed area and the money will be transferred elsewhere.

 

[scorza]

I don't disagree but at least your Ed Millibands were still elected personally. It was their name on the paper that the constituents there chose and they knew who they were choosing.

Voting for a party then having the person selected after the fact it quite different.

This leads into another bug-bear of mine with our current system. MPs are supposed to represent their constituencies in Parliament right, but then some MPs will become government ministers and they're still supposed to represent their constituency. I ask realistically, how can they do both jobs? First of all there's a massive conflict of interests there - what if the government wants to do something unpopular in a minister's constituency? Realistically, ministers seem to be busy people running the country so I can't see how much time they could devote to representing their constituency.

I think Jenkins acknowledged this with his AV+ proposal - career politicians could get themselves on the regional lists and elected via PR, whereas genuine people who wanted to represent their local area could stand in the normal way and be elected via FPTP (or AV). Criticism that this would lead to two types of MP is valid, but we have that anyway in a de facto sense.

 

[Skunkworks]

So why is the EU blatantly bribing Turkey to do their dirty work and hold back the migrants? And in turn leaving themselves open to blackmail from Turkey for demanding Visa free EU travel? Seems the EU are happily able to deal with such a none democratic country when it suits them....

We (the EU) are far too soft to tell these chancers to **** off, so instead we pay Turkey billions to tell them to **** off on our bahalf.

It was our weakness in enforcing our borders that led to this feeding frenzy in the first place.

 

[RaohNS]

Living in Wales and as Wales receives a net benefit from being in the EU (which I believe is a "fact") and as all other arguments are based on best guess, why should I vote to leave?

The English are pretty much the worst off anyway.

Retort: We could use some of the £8bn and give it your farmers. We could even make a Former EU Membership account and pay things out if that.

Personally I think the English Should be allowed to have the same opportunities as the Welsh and Scottish. Are they not having free university in Wales soon?

 

[RaohNS]

Drawback of the system I guess.

However, usurping is the wrong word to use, given that its to take a position illegally. Bad our system may be, but it's the very definition of legal.

I agree and won't deny that. But in this case usurp is perfect... #ToryElectionFraud.... Thus usurp is completely appropriate I'd say.

 

[Aldav]

There was a vote to introduce a system which would have been better for eg. UKIP... it was comprehensively rejected by the electorate.

There are plenty of justifiable reasons for rejecting AV as a system, even if you favour PR, because the two are not synonymous. Whether the electorate rejected AV (which is the only alternative that's been offered) because they were clued up enough to know the difference, or just voted to retain FPTP out of fear of change, or inertia, or for some other reason, is another matter.

I suspect that at least partly, AV was rejected because it was seen as exactly the sort of politically-motivated "dirty little compromise" even some leading LibDems, and it was them forcing it to a referendum, saw it for. Given that that vote was the 'prize' the LibDems sought, perhaps voters were offended by them selling out over tuition rees, etc, in order to get what they wanted, and slapped them for it?

In any event, voters rejected AV, not PR. Also, the political landscape has changed significantly since then.

 

[RaohNS]

No it isn't. In some circumstances AV can be less democratic. It also fails on the monotonocity criteria. Hence why I voted against it.

So FPTP and AV are poor for democracy in different ways. AV can be done and leaves a lot open for thought.

Person 1 may go:
Party 1. 2nd choice
Party 2. 1st choice
Party 3. 3rd choice

Person 2 may go:
Party 1.
Party 2. 1st choice
Party 3.

It brings an individual the chance to opt more freely for a preference. Me personally I would have at the last GE only voted Labour or UKIP. However, now I will never vote the MP in my area again until she is changed. Her moral compass is... Lacking shall we say.

 

[Nate--IRL--]

So FPTP and AV are poor for democracy in different ways. AV can be done and leaves a lot open for thought.

Person 1 may go:
Party 1. 2nd choice
Party 2. 1st choice
Party 3. 3rd choice

Person 2 may go:
Party 1.
Party 2. 1st choice
Party 3.

It brings an individual the chance to opt more freely for a preference. Me personally I would have at the last GE only voted Labour or UKIP. However, now I will never vote the MP in my area again until she is changed. Her moral compass is... Lacking shall we say.

Actually, to have the most effect, you must vote for that person last. Otherwise, if you omit it, your vote may be transferred when you don't want it to be.

Nate

 

[scorza]

It brings an individual the chance to opt more freely for a preference. Me personally I would have at the last GE only voted Labour or UKIP. However, now I will never vote the MP in my area again until she is changed. Her moral compass is... Lacking shall we say.

Ooh intriguing. I instantly thought of Dianne Abbot, Jess Phillips or Naz Shah.

 

[RaohNS]

Ooh intriguing. I instantly thought of Dianne Abbot, Jess Phillips or Naz Shah.

Jess the Misandrist Phillips good heavens no I would move in a heartbeat.

I email my MP only on important matters. She is nothing compared to her predecessor mind and that's unfortunate. She is also in the core of anti Corbyn MPs which annoys me. Again, have been played the fool in playing a part in electing her. Not again.

 

[b0redj0rd]

Living in Wales and as Wales receives a net benefit from being in the EU (which I believe is a "fact") and as all other arguments are based on best guess, why should I vote to leave?

I am Welsh, and living in Wales. The money we get is given to Wales because we have one of the most under preforming economies in the EU - This money is discretionary, as we invite more and more 'poor' Eastern European countries in to the EU we run the risk of this money being taken away.

I'd wager the money Wales receives will shrink away to nothing as time progresses - Why wouldn't it when we have the likes of Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Turkey and Bosnia waiting in the wings to suck up the EU Structural Fund?

Wales is getting this funding until 2020 at which point we will be assessed and it will be decided whether this continues or doesn't. The funding Wales has received is no reason to stay in because it isn't permanent or guaranteed by any means.

 

[RaohNS]

I am Welsh, and living in Wales. The money we get is given to Wales because we have one of the most under preforming economies in the EU - This money is discretionary, as we invite more and more 'poor' Eastern European countries in to the EU we run the risk of this money being taken away.

I'd wager the money Wales receives will shrink away to nothing as time progresses - Why wouldn't it when we have the likes of Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Turkey and Bosnia waiting in the wings to suck up the EU Structural Fund?

Wales is getting this funding until 2020 at which point we will be assessed and it will be decided whether this continues or doesn't. The funding Wales has received is no reason to stay in because it isn't permanent or guaranteed by any means.

Stolen this answer

*pulls up trousers more*

 

[twist3d0n3]

 

[Panos]

What I see is that on Greek media, the following article is first page (and big news) on all outlets, while on british media, is hidden with tiny letter, or not mentioned at all. Even by the Guardian who did one of the poll, is hidden and you have to search for it...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-leaning-towards-brexit-guardian-poll-reveals


While the Independent runs a pretty balanced article, stating that even the scaremongers acknowledge that their numbers are wrong.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...c-consensus-on-brexit-is-flawed-a7057306.html

And that from two lefty media outlets that support the stay in!!!!


Personally as I have said before, EU has followed the same path as the Athenian Alliance, which was created in same principles, which was converted to Athenian Hegemony in matter of years. As EU now has become the German Hegemony.
Is absurd to have the German Chancellor making foreign policy for the whole of EU. And see how the whole situation with Turkey progressed. Merkel went to Turkey alone, and made the deals about the migrants, visa etc.
Then she passed it to the EU mechanisms.

If correct the EU has a foreign minister in the Commission, who should have done the negotiations.

I rest my case.