Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (May Poll)

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

  • Remain a member of the European Union

    Votes: 522 41.6%
  • Leave the European Union

    Votes: 733 58.4%

  • Total voters
    1,255
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
Soldato
Joined
8 Mar 2007
Posts
10,938
if you're so up for self governance, I think that's called anarchy, why stop at uk, why not split that up. then why settle there, why not split each county up and so forth.

So you think EU regulations and free movement should apply to the rest of the world then? Why limit the countries of Europe to this Utopian project? Why have state level governance at all, just install an NWO to run us with laws that are limited to the lowest common denominator?


My point..that argument works both ways.
 
Last edited:
Man of Honour
Joined
11 Mar 2004
Posts
76,634
So you think EU regulations and free movement should apply to the rest of the world then? Why limit the countries of Europe to this Utopian project?


My point..that argument works both ways.

once they meet certain criteria absolutely. it will take thousands of years to get there though, but globalisation is happening whether you like it or not. its not going to suddenly disappear. all you'll do by leaving is hurt yourself whilst having to agree to all the rules the leave campaign want to leave for.
 
Soldato
Joined
8 Mar 2007
Posts
10,938
once they meet certain criteria absolutely. it will take thousands of years to get there though, but globalisation is happening whether you like it or not. its not going to suddenly disappear. all you'll do by leaving is hurt yourself whilst having to agree to all the rules the leave campaign want to leave for.

What part of globalisation requires the dissolving of state sovereignty, making state-less courts supreme over national ones and creating a borderless world in terms of population movement?

Globalisation, to me, just means the ability for business to trade across the world and for consumers to buy from across it. None of the above are required for those two things to happen.

The irony is of course technology is making the traditional use of the term "globalisation" less of a concern. No longer do you actually need offices and employees in countries all over the world and your top brass can have conference calls with other stake holders from all over the globe without leaving head office.
 
Man of Honour
Joined
11 Mar 2004
Posts
76,634
why are you so hung up on state sovereignty.
you for for eu parliament and have just as much control as you do over uk government, infact due to our seats its easy to argue you have more control over EU.

globalisation isn't just about trade, it's about right to work anywhere, humans rights and all sorts. These entail far more than just trade agreements, as we already see now trade agreements come with a hole host of attached legislation that has nothing to do with the trade.
 
Soldato
Joined
8 Mar 2007
Posts
10,938
why are you so hung up on state sovereignty.

Why are you so free to give it way when hundreds of your ancestors fought and died to keep it?

you for for eu parliament and have just as much control as you do over uk government, infact due to our seats its easy to argue you have more control over EU.

So because I don't personally have significant control over what happens in Westminster, I should welcome my ability to have even less input into an institution that can override it?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

globalisation isn't just about trade, it's about right to work anywhere, humans rights and all sorts. These entail far more than just trade agreements, as we already see now trade agreements come with a hole host of attached legislation that has nothing to do with the trade.

Your definition of globalisation, by which no country oustide the EU supports it.

People use that word to mean so many different things it's become meaningless anyway.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
26,210
Why are you so free to give it way when hundreds of your ancestors fought and died to keep it?

Did they really fight to keep state sovereignty or was it more that they fought on the side of their allies who were becoming victims of land grabs and brutal treatment at the hands of an aggressor? Sovereignty is at best a byproduct but it's far from the reason people went to war.
 
Man of Honour
Joined
11 Mar 2004
Posts
76,634
Why are you so free to give it way when hundreds of your ancestors fought and died to keep it?



So because I don't personally have significant control over what happens in Westminster, I should welcome my ability to have even less input into an institution that can override it?

Two wrongs don't make a right.



Your definition of globalisation, by which no country oustide the EU supports it.

People use that word to mean so many different things it's become meaningless anyway.

oh look emotional nonsenses, that is designed to blind people emotionally.
no they didn't not fight to keep it from expanding to a larger democratically elected government. They fought to keep it from being conquered by a military power, who could do what ever they wanted.

why is it always such stupid arguments.

did I say you should welcome it for that?
perhaps you should welcome it because it's for a start not what you describe it to be, and on balance has done great good for not only UK but the region.

no other country supports, rofl.
perhaps you should actually go learn what sort of things are in trade agreements. Start with what Switzerland have had to sign upto for their trade agreements for Europe. not how so little of the agreement is based on trade. then go look at what USa imposes on it's trade partners, again little is based on pure trade but much wider terms.
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
8 Mar 2007
Posts
10,938
Did they really fight to keep state sovereignty or was it more that they fought on the side of their allies who were becoming victims of land grabs and brutal treatment at the hands of an aggressor? Sovereignty is at best a byproduct but it's far from the reason people went to war.

You honestly believe the UK Government at the time went into two world wars because it felt sad for people of Poland and Romania?

It was British policy that no country in Europe should become "dominant" (as that would threaten our position as the dominant country in Europe at the time) and that is what actually triggered our involvement in the wars. The atrocities being committed were merely the stated reasons....

Until the early 1900s, Britain was more concerned about Russia and France than Germany. Relations between Britain and Germany were very good. This began to change, however. When Kaiser Wilhelm II took control of Germany, he was anxious for Germany to be a great power. He felt that Russia to the east and France to the west were encircling Germany. As a result, he built up his armed forces. France and Russia feared Germany and did the same. During the 1900s, all of the great powers in Europe began to build up their armies and navies.

British policy in Europe intended that no country in Europe should become completely dominant. If Russia, France, Germany and Austria-Hungary worried about each other, then they would be less of a threat to Britain. By about 1907 it was becoming clear to Britain that the greatest potential threat to Britain was going to be Germany. The strong economy, large population and powerful armed forces of Germany seemed to be capable of dominating Europe. As a result, Britain began to support Russia and France. Britain joined the Triple Entente.


oh look emotional nonsenses, that is designed to blind people emotionally.
no they didn't not fight to keep it from expanding to a larger democratically elected government. They fought to keep it from being conquered by a military power, who could do what ever they wanted.

No one voted for the current version of the EU. It has been built on a non-mandated slowly-slowly-catchy-monkey tactic because in the 70s the people of the UK thought joining a very loosely regulated common market was a good idea.

did I say you should welcome it for that?
perhaps you should welcome it because it's for a start not what you describe it to be, and on balance has done great good for not only UK but the region.

What 'great good' specifically has it done for the UK?

no other country supports, rofl.
perhaps you should actually go learn what sort of things are in trade agreements. Start with what Switzerland have had to sign upto for their trade agreements for Europe. not how so little of the agreement is based on trade. then go look at what USa imposes on it's trade partners, again little is based on pure trade but much wider terms.

None of the other 168 countries outside the EU feel the need for free movement or non-nationalised supreme courts you seem to think are undeniably a good thing. Why is that if the benefits are so obvious? Is over 85% of the planet denying globalisation?
 
Last edited:
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
26,210
You honestly believe the UK Government at the time went into two world wars because it felt sad for people of Poland and Romania?

It was British policy that no country in Europe should become "dominant" (as that would threaten our position as the dominant country in Europe at the time) and that is what actually triggered our involvement in the wars. The atrocities being committed were merely the stated reasons....

It's a leap to claim that this is what our ancestors who fought in wars died for though. They fought because they were told to. They weren't given the choice between being dead or being part of a German state. I wouldn't seek to proclaim what they fought for personally, I'm sure each had their own opinions.
 
Soldato
Joined
8 Mar 2007
Posts
10,938
It's a leap to claim that this is what our ancestors who fought in wars died for though. They fought because they were told to. They weren't given the choice between being dead or being part of a German state. I wouldn't seek to proclaim what they fought for personally, I'm sure each had their own opinions.

But you've introduced the personal motivations of the soldiers, I didn't. Much like a 1943 Tommy spiking a straw man with his bunionette.

They fought, and died, for the British Government's goals at the time. Which was my only claim.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
26,210
Well if we're just presenting facts then I don't see why what people died to achieve in the past should influence future decisions. The "people died to prevent Germany telling us what to do!" argument is nothing more than an appeal to emotion. You can probably find examples throughout history of people who have died to achieve both sides of an argument, it shouldn't form part of decision making in the present.

There's enough reasons to use to push a Brexit point of view without an obsession with sovereignty or the bizarre viewpoint that somehow people who want to stay in the EU are traitors.
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
12 Nov 2015
Posts
4,010
Well if we're just presenting facts then I don't see why what people died to achieve in the past should influence future decisions. The "people died to prevent Germany telling us what to do!" argument is nothing more than an appeal to emotion. You can probably find examples throughout history of people who have died to achieve both sides of an argument, it shouldn't form part of decision making in the present.

There's enough reasons to use to push a Brexit point of view without an obsession with sovereignty or the bizarre viewpoint that somehow people who want to stay in the EU are traitors.

Better said!
 
Associate
Joined
21 Jul 2012
Posts
680
7 Myths about the EU debunked by #leftleave ..

http://www.leftleave.org/seven-more-myths-about-the-eu/

The EU has brought peace in Europe for 50 years or more


The EU originated in a ‘Cold War’ bloc to rebuild monopoly capitalism in western Europe and confront the Soviet Union and the new states of eastern Europe.

After NATO was formed in 1949, plans for a ‘European Defence Community’ alongside the European Coal and Steel Community were thrown out by French Communist and Gaullist MPs. West Germany was then rearmed and admitted into NATO, leading to the formation of the Warsaw Pact in 1955.

Peace was kept in Europe by anti-war feeling in the West and the Soviet policy of ‘peaceful co-existence’, despite the US-led arms race. The German-Soviet process of detente led to the formation of the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe in 1975, which played a leading role in easing tensions, although the EU still strives to marginalise the OSCE and its work for peace-keeping, arms control, democracy and human rights.

Since the end of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact, the EU has expanded eastwards alongside NATO, developing its own capacity for rearmament and military intervention in league with NATO under the Lisbon Treaty. EU states have helped destabilise Yugoslavia, Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and parts of Africa.

Many problems today are international, and so require a coordinated EU approach


Problems of global warming, pollution, malnutrition, disease, economic and financial crisis, organised crime, corruption, war, mass migration etc. are often wider than the EU. Britain already plays its part in numerous international agencies (the UN, WHO, Unesco, ILO etc.), based on individual member states, to combat them.

The EU represents the interests of Europe’s big business corporations, using its collective strength to undermine many international agencies to the cost of weaker countries and their peoples (e.g. carbon emission trading schemes which transfer licenced pollution to the Third World and create a new source of financial speculation and profit; trade and debt restructuring agreements which require market access and privatisation).

As the world’s fifth biggest economic power with economic, political and cultural relations across the world, Britain has its own resources, expertise and perpsectives to contribute to solving international problems.

If Britain votes to leave the EU, it would be a victory for the political right

The CBI, Institute of Directors and the mainstream political right support EU membership, reflecting the interests of big business, while wanting to protect the City’s banks and financial markets from any EU regulation and discrimination (the chief objective of Cameron’s renegotiations)

A vote for withdrawal would bring down the Cameron-Osborne regime. Any Tory replacement would be unstable and probably short-lived, as the Tory Party tears itself apart. The conditions could be created for electing a Labour government on a programme of progressive taxation, public investment, public ownership, industrial regeneration and ecological security.

Free from EU barriers and restrictions, Britain could more easily promote policies at home and abroad which put people and the planet first, not corporate profit.

The EU can be reformed to serve the interests of the people


Three of the four major EU institutions (the Commission, European Central Bank and European Court of Justice) have their extensive powers guaranteed by EU treaties which can only be changed by unanimous agreement within the fourth, namely, the Council of Ministers.

Similarly, the basic free market, pro-austerity policies of the EU are set in concrete in those same treaties, which can only be amended by unanimous agreement of all member states (28 at present).

Those fundamental treaties severely limit the ability of EU member state governments to fund public investment, rescue failing companies and industries, save jobs or use public ownership for wider economic, social and environmental purposes. Should Britain elect a left or progressive government, the treaties will act as a strait-jacket on its policies, which could only be removed if every other EU member state government agrees to treaty change.

Outside the EU, a future British government would be free to regulate the movement of capital, goods and services in order to boost domestic investment in productive industry, stimulate economic growth and balanced industrial development, support strategic sectors and enterprises, promote ecological and energy saving measures, encourage different forms of public and social ownership, and protect all workers against super-exploitation.

Scotland and Wales benefit from EU funds and British and withdrawal would lead to the break-up of Britain


Wales receives around £18m a year (£92m according to Plaid Cymru) more from EU funds than it puts in. But this is less than one-fifth of 1 per cent of Britain’s net contribution to the EU Budget (£15.2bn in 2016) and of the National Assembly’s annual block grant from central government (£15.5bn in 2016).

In July 2015, it was revealed that the SNP government has been compelled to drastically amend its Scottish Futures Trust project for public investment in schools, hospitals and roads to give the private sector a bigger, more profitable role.

Scotland and Wales have suffered heavily from the export of capital and jobs to southern and eastern Europe, where labour is skilled but cheaper and energy and transport costs are lower.

As independent member states of the EU, Scotland and Wales would be among the smallest, while their main economic relations would continue to be with England. The Scottish Government in Edinburgh accepts that Scotland would continue to be a net contributor to the EU Budget as a separate member state.

Outside the EU, the Scottish, Welsh and British governments would be free to decide whether and how to finance public expenditure and support strategic industries and services. Free from the EU Classical Directive on public procurement, local government could award larger contracts to local suppliers.

Democracy and human rights will be threatened if Britain leaves the EU


Democratic rights in Britain are enshrined in our domestic law, together with commitments arising from international law, its conventions and courts. Those rights did not originate in the EU.

Tory hostility has been aimed at the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) enshrined in Britain’s Human Rights Act and its European Court — both of which arise from our membership of the Council of Europe, set up in 1950 and wholly separate from the EU.

While EU membership obliges all member states to adopt the ECHR, this does not prevent governments from flouting both the convention and the UN Declaration of Human Rights. In December 2014, the ECJ blocked a draft treaty affiliating the EU to the convention and its court, not wishing to expose EU institutions and treaties to a different authority — the ECHR European Court — in matters of human and democratic rights.

We need to defend and extend democratic and human rights, including through the ECHR and OSCE, whether inside or outside the anti-democratic EU.

There is no realistic alternative to EU membership


Most of the world’s countries, big and small, manage without being in the EU. Britain has bilateral agreements with almost all of them, including through our participation in more than 70 international organisations in political, economic, scientific, emvironmental, labour, health and educational matters.

Many countries trade and cooperate with the EU, without being EU members or accepting the imposition of the pro-big business economic and financial policies demanded by EU treaties and institutions.

Joining the European Free Trade Area and through it the European Economic Area would enable Britain to remain in the ‘Single European Market’, but at the price of obeying many EU rules and diktats.

Economic, political and other relations could be strengthened by new arrangements with BRICS and the 53 Commonwealth countries, collectively and individually.
 
Caporegime
Joined
25 Jul 2005
Posts
28,851
Location
Canada
So you are saying you do not believe an EU member state should be allowed freedom to democratically elect any government the population so votes for? That if that is seen by the EU to be against their master plan that member state's voice should be annexed? The next step would logically be to disallow member states their own governance, and put them all under a centralised EU government.... Does that too appeal?

Or turf them out.

The problem at the moment is that there is no mechanism to turf a country out of the EU against their will.
 
Caporegime
Joined
25 Jul 2005
Posts
28,851
Location
Canada
And when you have voted to stay in & they do steal our NHS & lots more it'll be too late to do anything cause we'll be shackled to the cesspit eu forever.

Look at the mess europe is in. If we wasn't in already would you even consider joining a migrant laden hell hole?

No, we will vote in another party (ukip?) that promises another referendum.

Look at the mess europe is in. If we wasn't in already would you even consider joining a migrant laden hell hole?

Sorry, I don't recognize this away you're talking about. Yes, there are some problems, but it's certainly not a "migrant laden hell hole". And once again it's not as if us being in or out of the EU is going to change the affect the crisis is/will have on us. We can't be forced to take any and they have no rights to come here after applying for asylum in the rest of the EU. They would still need a passport to enter this country even if they decided to move through the EU to us.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom