Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (May Poll)

[Nate--IRL--]

I dunno why people are conflating the ECHR definition of human rights with the EU's policy decisions, especially the Brimainians who love telling us they are two different and separate institutions.

Is it not the framework to the UKs own Human Rights Act that Scorza initially referenced in the discussion?

Nate

 

[Zethor]

You called me anti Semitic though. Then come in headlong into a topic train you have no clue about. Contribute without labelling me (a person who has Jewish ancestry and is partnered to somebody who is a good portion Jewish).

I made a link between legislation and its affects. You and your belligerent idiocy in making such an asinine statement goes against what was arising from the discussion.

I don't know what you are but you've obviously taken lessons from far right summer camp or whatever it is that you people use to spread ideas. It is just odd to bring up the Holocaust, of all things, in this discussion. There's no explanation for it other than the topic having some sort of significance to you or those who write what you read.

 

[Caged]

Well we've just seen that exact thing arise haven't we

Point proven. Talking around one aspect while being seen to ignore what is shall we say transiently more so considered results in what has just occurred.

What on earth are you talking about? We've just seen what arise?

 

[RaohNS]

What on earth are you talking about? We've just seen what arise?

Read my posts from hate speech in bold then notice what I say and how Zethor jumps immediately in. Its really not difficult to connect the dots.

I said saying something could be twisted. Someone said it doesn't... Zethor then jumps in and validates my point that someone can take offence over not acknowledging something.

 

[RaohNS]

I don't know what you are but you've obviously taken lessons from far right summer camp or whatever it is that you people use to spread ideas. It is just odd to bring up the Holocaust, of all things, in this discussion. There's no explanation for it other than the topic having some sort of significance to you or those who write what you read.

What lies have I said then Professor? You people? Bigot much.

I take it by that token you think Ken Livingstone's remarks were factually inaccurate by the same token as you threw in the antisemitic element?

Ohhh I get it... SJW... Should have spotted it earlier

 

[stopper]

If however a plan was drawn up with trade deals, new laws that would be replaced, amended, and some sort of guarentee that the money we spend will be directed to building houses and health and education..... I would vote out in a heartbeat. Unfortunately... No such plan has come forth.

You wouldn't get that by voting in either, in fact, you would get a lot less by staying in. The right to rule ourselves would dissapear for one, that's the most important thing to any country.

 

[Caged]

Read my posts from hate speech in bold then notice what I say and how Zethor jumps immediately in. Its really not difficult to connect the dots.

I said saying something could be twisted. Someone said it doesn't... Zethor then jumps in and validates my point that someone can take offence over not acknowledging something.

That's not the same thing as being able to apply hate speech legislation to something that isn't hate speech, which I believe was the original point being made. Somebody on the internet taking issue with what you say is worlds apart from a law being able to be broadly applied to silence any dissenters.

 

[bayo000]

Oh dear another blinkered person.

I was thinking of voting to stay, cause I have no children & so what ever happen to UK if we vote to stay wont make much difference to me at my age. It's your children & your children children that will suffer the endless migration & unemployment & loss of the NHS all the things that you enjoy.

So maybe I should to stay & screw your kids over...Sounds like a plan.

lol

I couldn't care less what you decide to do. My children (when my gf and I eventually get round to it) will be able to apply for EU passport if they so wish and I'm keeping mine as well. But for sake of everyone do vote Yes to SAVE our children.

You sound like someone who would greatly benefit by living abroad for couple of years to open your mind a bit more.

 

[sityeuropa]

You wouldn't get that by voting in either, in fact, you would get a lot less by staying in. The right to rule ourselves would dissapear for one, that's the most important thing to any country.

Can't believe how unimportant this seems to this floaty care free generation.

 

[Skunkworks]

Well this is fruitful. Don't suppose you have any past incidents where someone has fallen foul of sloppy application of hate speech / inciting hatred legislation?

If I were of that type I could respond with something like "Can you read? I said 'could' not 'has'." But I think we already have more than enough of those.

I'm not getting into a huge debate over a side issue like this, but can see it easily being used to silence someone who's voiced doubts over the historical account of the holocaust. Walter Wolfgang would be a similar example.

 

[Troezar]

It's all very simple:

a) You are governed by Parliament who the British people can vote out if they don't like the laws they enact.

Or

b) You are governed by the EU where you get a 1 in 28 say if you don't like what they are doing. Soon to be more than 28.

Once there is an EU army and state forces are diminished who is going to say no if the majority are in favour? The EU already seem to like poking the Russian bear...

It won't happen quickly but your children and their children may be unlucky to see it. The former head of the SAS seems to agree.

 

[dalehitchy1]

You wouldn't get that by voting in either, in fact, you would get a lot less by staying in. The right to rule ourselves would dissapear for one, that's the most important thing to any country.

Ridiculous argument. By voting in brings me many benefits.... One of them being I can work anywhere in the EU. If we leave I loose that. However.... If we leave I want some kind of benefit. The argument I keep hearing from the leave side is that the money we spend COULD go to the nhs.

But what guarentee. All I hear is should and could. Its pointless for us to leave.... Loose the benefits and THEN not have any of that supposedly extra money go to things like that. Where is the positive side? And once again.... Where is the plan... I dont see anything.

Once again.... I'm pointing this out and that the brexit side has absolutely no plan if we was to leave. Its not even funny at this point and should be taken seriously. Why do they think once we vote to leave that all the hard work is over. I can predict we will end up joining the EEA like Norway and Switzerland because the brexit side didn't think about the post leave.

The voters probably wont even notice joining the EEA or what it is and will still think we will be reaping all the rewards of leaving the EU when in fact we would still practically be in it.

 

[estebanrey]

Can't believe how unimportant this seems to this floaty care free generation.

They seem to be under the illusion that all UK politicians are horrible, self-interested folk whereas the Godly rulers of the EU are all left-wing idealists whose primary motivations are to protect worker's rights from the evil Tories.

As much as people like to treat democracy as a holy cow, most would sooner vote for a dictatorship that fits their political ideology than a democracy that could throw up governments that don't.

 

[RaohNS]

That's not the same thing as being able to apply hate speech legislation to something that isn't hate speech, which I believe was the original point being made. Somebody on the internet taking issue with what you say is worlds apart from a law being able to be broadly applied to silence any dissenters.

In the real world then: someone like Zethor coming along during a reasonable and rational discussion in context with something intrinsic and specific to a section of Law would mean by the very posts he has made he construes myself and people I would be talking to as people who are stirring up hatred. He has said it himself.

Calling someone an attendee of a Far Right Summer camp etc. saying you are anti-Semitic. That highlights the point I was making that Hate speech can be contextualised as a subjective viewpoint... I really cannot make it any simpler.

Well this is my last post on this thread, unless they don't have the June vote.

24 days till we find out if we start WW3

 

[Caged]

If I were of that type I could respond with something like "Can you read? I said 'could' not 'has'." But I think we already have more than enough of those.

I'm not getting into a huge debate over a side issue like this, but can see it easily being used to silence someone who's voiced doubts over the historical account of the holocaust. Walter Wolfgang would be a similar example.

I know you said could not has but usually fears need to be founded in reality to be genuine. If the attitude is "well anything's possible" then it makes it more or less pointless to try and debate.

 

[bayo000]

Once there is an EU army and state forces are diminished who is going to say no if the majority are in favour? The EU already seem to like poking the Russian bear...

It won't happen quickly but your children and their children may be unlucky to see it. The former head of the SAS seems to agree.

That's quite a prediction, you already know what will happen in 2 generations?

Even in an event of exit if the EU and Russia do end up at war do you really think UK would not get involved in some way? As a member of NATO I'd imagine it would be very much involved.

Ohhh and I thought only the remain campaign was using a possibility of war as a scare tactic.

24 days till we find out if we start WW3

Seems like either way there will be a war according to another leave supporter.

 

[Glaucus]

It's all very simple:

a) You are governed by Parliament who the British people can vote out if they don't like the laws they enact.

Or

b) You are governed by the EU where you get a 1 in 28 say if you don't like what they are doing. Soon to be more than 28.

Once there is an EU army and state forces are diminished who is going to say no if the majority are in favour? The EU already seem to like poking the Russian bear...

It won't happen quickly but your children and their children may be unlucky to see it. The former head of the SAS seems to agree.

bahhhaaa what a load of rubbish.
I get to vote for one mp, that makes up uk parliament, so I have no power to throw a uk governed out, or select how it's made up.
just like in eu I get to vote for a sub set of Mps that make up a whole.

if you're so up for self governance, I think that's called anarchy, why stop at uk, why not split that up. then why settle there, why not split each county up and so forth.
god you guys cant even understand the basics.

 

[Phreaky]

bahhhaaa what a load of rubbish.
I get to vote for one mp, that makes up uk parliament, so I have no power to throw a uk governed out, or select how it's made up.
just like in eu I get to vote for a sub set of Mps that make up a whole.

if you're so up for self governance, I think that's called anarchy, why stop at uk, why not split that up. then why settle there, why not split each county up and so forth.
god you guys cant even understand the basics.

Its not even worth arguing with them - let them have their little totalitarian power fantasies about restarting the British Empire, it will all be over in a few weeks.

 

[estebanrey]

Ridiculous argument. By voting in brings me many benefits.... One of them being I can work anywhere in the EU. If we leave I loose that.

Number of UK nationals living/working in the EU = 1.2 million
Number of EU nationals living/working in the UK = 2.5 million (2012)

Now given the latter figure is even higher today, clearly free movement benefita more non-British nationals than vice-versa.

 

[Metallifux]

No, we don't have "free trade", but not because of contibutions paid to be part of the EU. You are quite correct that those contributions have nothing to do with the "free" part of free trade.

However, the EU is not a free trade area. It is a single market, though very much an incomplete one.

We have partial free trade, but not wholly so, within the EU, but even on goods it's not entirely complete and on services, which by definition should normally be included in a free trade area, which were largely included in the original pre-single market EU, and certainly have been repeatedly promised by the EU, are woefully short of happening.

In theory, the EU is a singie market, which takes the usual free-trade principles of removing taxes, tariffs, quotas etc, way further by also completing a "level playing field" by subjecting all participating members to exactly the same operating constraints, like health and safety standards and rules, packaging and labelling regulations, chemical content standards and much, much more.

So, in some significant areas, like services, the EU falls way short of even free trade let alone single market requirements, but in others, like free movement of capital, people, etc, it goes way beyond free trade.

The truth is, even if we left the EU and the singke market, any UK firms seeking to export to the EU would have to comply with many of those requirements, regulations (like labelling, etc) but only for goods they sought to export to the EU. Companies here not seeking to export to the EU would not have to comply, while currently, as part of that incomplete EU, they do.

Of course, the rest of the planet seeking to export to the EU manages to produce goods that comply with the EU regulations without being part of the single market. The US, China, entire south Pacific, south American regions, Canada, India etc all trade. And any EU member seeking to export into any of those countries has to comply with regulations, etc, of the country they're exporting to. If I want to export to Australia, I have to comply with all relevant Aussie regulations to do so, on goods I wish to export there.

Ae do not have free trade with the EU. We have mostly free trade, gold-plated with single-market add-ons, for most goods and far less services. And as the services sector is critically important to the UK, the degree of free trade we have we the EU is far less than you might think.

Moreover, the whole argument is missing the point, which is that the issue is far more complex than that. For instance, single market membership imposes a substantial regulatory burden on firms that either to not export, or do not export to the EU, with no compensating benefit from that single market. Such firms have to comply with such EU impositions, then if they want to export to Australia, the US etc, they have to comply with national requirements there, too, even though they are different to the EU.

Nobody can say for certain what the impact of leaving the EU would be. But when being part of a single market also implies being part of a bloc that imposes extra burdens to countries outside it trading in, as well as inside it trading out, then we not only have to consider the benefits of the 500m people in it, but the burdens imposed on the 6.5bn not in it, and the trajectory of those economies and our trade with them.

What worries me, in purely trade terms, is that being part of the EU is rather like hand-cuffing ourselves to the ship to ensure we don't get washed overboard, blissfully ignorant of the fate of our ship, the Titanic. Any half-competent economist can't fail to be aware that the EU ship is sailing full-speed through a minefield of icebergs, and given the state of many economies including some big ones, is already holed below the waterline, is taking on water and there's a huge questionmark over whether the bilge pumps can cope.

Oh, and a hell of a lot of the passengers are threatening mutiny and would live to lynch the captain and senior officers.

Should we be hand-cuffing ourselves to that, or booking our place on the life-raft?

I haven't yet finally decided, but I've geen waiting for some argument from Remain to convince me and have so far been disgusted by the nature of the campaign. Not that Leave is much better.

So, I'm voting out in this thread, but am still open to convincing otherwise if the Remain csmpaign can get their heads out of their butts and make a rational, not hugely distorted, case.


In the end, the EU is not about trade. It is and always has been a political project designed to produce, whatever we call it, a unified European state to counterbalance the Russians, the US, China, etc, and what we're really asking ourselves is not about short-term trade but about whether we want to be a small (but still economically significant) country, or an important region in a single European state?

Why have the rad remainers not dissected this lovely slice of text. Thought it would be your bread and butter?