Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (May Poll)

[muon]

Yep, we're back in GD all right.

I'll try to break up this fight over peoples' education with the latest from NIESR: http://ner.sagepub.com/; click on the cover to view. Every major Brexit topic covered, without hysteria, paranoia or amateurish mental gymnastics. Indeed, they even get around to looking at what MigrationWatch says -- if that's not an invitation to some sceptics here, I don't know what is. Come on. Read something other than a tabloid for a change!

Here is also a slightly easier to read portal for expert insights.

http://voxeu.org/

 

[Mulder]

You guys can try and spin it any way you want, the fact is lower educated people are voting to leave, while higher educated people are voting in. Higher educated people tend to achieve more in life on average, make scientific breakthroughs and run successful businesses more often.

For a moment I couldn't figure out if you were for real or not, but I guess you are, as hard as that is to believe. I work in investment banking, have a degree from a Russell group uni and have a professional qualification. I know many people at work who are similarly educated and also want to leave. I also know a few people my age (29) who quit school at 16 or 18 and want to remain. As I pointed out earlier many successful entrepreneurs want to leave. And you mention the FTSE100, where two thirds didn't sign the remain letter, I guess they're all thick too. And the 100 city grandees who want to leave including various hedge fund, brokerage, and insurance company founders, they all must be thick too.

Don't confuse academic attainment with broader life knowledge/experience. Many people have loads of 'qualifications' these days that aren't worth the paper they're written on.

 

[Freakbro]

So Boris has just come out and compared the EU to Hitler lol, you would have thought after the Livingstone debacle even mentioning Hitler would be off the table....

Anyway, Project Fear anyone?

(Waits for the Brexiteers defense of why in this case it was a justifiable comparison )

 

[Chris Wilson]

Several of the most entrenched remain supporters on here have consistently stated that granting Turkey visa free EU travel is no big deal, and cite many other countries who enjoy this privilege.

If it is not a big deal why is Turkey saying unless this visa free deal is offered their "help" with the migrant crisis will be cancelled. The billions in monetary terms being given them is not enough without nearly immediate granting of visa free travel to EU member states.

Sounds like they think it's a VERY big deal. I would like to hear why those who have frequently said it's a nothing, a triviality, feel Turkey is making such a thing about it.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Alternatively you could explain why Turkey getting something that countries like Columbia already have is such a big deal? Much of the world already has this.

Whilst at it, you could also explain how it's even relevant to the referendum given it relates to Schengen not the EU. We are not part of Schengen.

 

[Insanties_birth]

So Boris has just come out and compared the EU to Hitler lol, you would have thought after the Livingstone debacle even mentioning Hitler would be off the table....

Anyway, Project Fear anyone?

(Waits for the Brexiteers defense of why in this case it was a justifiable comparison )

To be fair a false political commentary is far less project fear than a false economic commentary (like the £4,300 figure) because there's room for comparison regardless of validity in the political spectrum and it can still be construed as exaggeration or making a point based on a single facet of the way the EU works. For me personally I wouldn't defend that remark but if he feels it's overly authoratarian and wants to embarass himself slightly by making a comedic exaggeration then there is still some element of truth (although stretched too far) whereas real project fear is when they tell you that you're going to lose your house, you'll be 4,300 worse off (and don't specify at what income, what kind of job etc so purposefully leave it vague misinformation) and also when they say Putin would love a Brexit. I won't defend either side except to say we've still had more project fear from the in crowd so you'd be daft to think this is somehow worth your smiley face as some sort of win Both sides are offering lots of fud but the in side is still worse lol.

How is a comparison of a dead person we have no reason to fear worse than PUTIN WILL GET US, PUTIN WILL GET US. So where's your defense? I don't get how you missed that either, did it really gloss over your mind that there is project fear on the in campaign or does that generally match your mind set so you just give it a pass or something?

 

[bayo000]

Here is what 4 million idiots look like. Here is your definition.

Not actually watched the video but for a UKip meeting I haven't seen a single Union Jack on the wall.

 

[Freakbro]

To be fair a false political commentary is far less project fear than a false economic commentary (like the £4,300 figure) because there's room for comparison regardless of validity in the political spectrum and it can still be construed as exaggeration or making a point based on a single facet of the way the EU works. For me personally I wouldn't defend that remark but if he feels it's overly authoratarian and wants to embarass himself slightly by making a comedic exaggeration then there is still some element of truth (although stretched too far) whereas real project fear is when they tell you that you're going to lose your house, you'll be 4,300 worse off (and don't specify at what income, what kind of job etc so purposefully leave it vague misinformation) and also when they say Putin would love a Brexit. I won't defend either side except to say we've still had more project fear from the in crowd so you'd be daft to think this is somehow worth your smiley face as some sort of win Both sides are offering lots of fud but the in side is still worse lol.

How is a comparison of a dead person we have no reason to fear worse than PUTIN WILL GET US, PUTIN WILL GET US. So where's your defense? I don't get how you missed that either, did it really gloss over your mind that there is project fear on the in campaign or does that generally match your mind set so you just give it a pass or something?

I'm not sure how you could accuse me of missing the 'remain sides project fear' when you guys bleat about it everyday

Maybe I should have made it more obvious it was sarcasm as I think just yelling 'Project Fear' at everything is moronic.

 

[Tunney]

Universities are full of raving lefties who tend to quickly change their minds when it gets figured out money isn't handed on a plate and there's families who need providing for.

That's not what the data is showing. It's showing that those that are university educated tend to stay in the Remain camp.

Define well educated?

As in university, collage or GCSE education.

What is your definition of well educated or should I say indoctrinated, just asking?

I would say that the average person with a degree is relatively well educated. I agree with all of you that well-educated doesn't necessarily mean intelligent and visa versa. The point I'm trying to make is that someone middle class is more likely to be in the Remain camp. It's no wonder that those with degrees (who are dispropriately middle class) are also more likely to believe in the EU.

 

[thep02]

Amen brother.

Agree, was waiting for a short comment on that post to agree with.

 

[Zethor]

Err, you originally linked to CEPR, not open democracy. As per their 2015 financial accounts here, which says:



So they get their funding mainly from the UK Government and the EU commission. Shock horror they are in favour of remaining!

Still trying to pretend they're not biased?

I mixed up your reply with Judgeneo's, which is why I kept asking for the link. They are possibly biased but the rest of the reports on the effects of Brexit stand and there is no equivalent on the out side. I ask you again where the evidence for your stance is. Youtube videos, mercenary sites that will back anything and a minority of experts whose arguments have been easily dismantled by reputable sources do not represent sufficient evidence.

It seems you've given up on debating the actual issues and are now just asserting that "consensus" is in your favour. Do you actually know anything about the issues, how the EU works in reality, what it stands for, what it wants to achieve, why nationalism is on the rise across the whole of Europe, why the OCUK poll has gone from pro-remain to pro-leave? I guess not.

That's one of the problems with the remain camp, when it comes down to it a lot of their argument is basically "but the IMF, global banks, global businesses etc are telling us we must remain". Do you think it's conceivable that the IMF isn't looking out for your best interests, but is more concerned that without Britain the EU may well collapse and its significant loans to Greece won't get paid back? Global leaders are doing what the UK Government asks them to, that's diplomacy, they don't care about what's in the best long term interests of the British people. Mark Carney as pointed out earlier worked for 13 years for Goldman Sachs etc. Then there's the CBI, whose leader was suspended and then resigned because he was pro Brexit.

To put your faith in the above groups without looking at their vested interest, their real agenda or the detail of the issues is just naive.

And you can keep saying the "consensus" is in favour of remaining, but even with big businesses only a third of the FTSE100 signed the pro remain letter, so two thirds chose not to sign it, hardly a consensus. Much like the swing in the OCUK survey, a British Chambers of Commerce recent survey said that the business majority for remain was being diminished. Maybe people are looking at the issues rather than blindly believing the scaremongering headlines.

The people who actually create value, entrepreneurs, from what I've seen are generally in favour of leaving e.g. Dyson, Wetherspoons, JCB, the founders of Reebok, Phones4U etc. Then there's the 100 leading city figures who want out, including the founders of various hedge funds, private equity groups and insurance companies.

The current figureheads of global businesses (e.g. HSBC) often have to be seen to toe the establishment line, whereas the ex CEO of HSBC, the ex Governor of the Bank of England etc are free to speak their minds and provide a more unbiased view. Putting less faith in someone's opinion the day after they leave a position of power is again just naive.

This Newsnight debate sums up the above pretty well - an entrepreneur running her own business who wants out, versus a manager of Siemens. I know who I thought had the more convincing argument, and the audience seemed to agree.

Nice 'anti establishment' rant. In your little universe, Britain controls the decisions of all major leaders, the financial institutions are worried about the EU falling apart( which would apparently not affect Britain) and a few former business leaders are more knowledgeable than current ones. Oh you know what the FTSE100 managers who didn't sign the remain letter think. Why didn't sign a Leave letter by the way?

Your argument is weak, it's rethoric, no substance no evidence. It's a gut feeling, not a rational conclusion.

 

[Insanties_birth]

I'm not sure how you could accuse me of missing the 'remain sides project fear' when you guys bleat about it everyday

Maybe I should have made it more obvious it was sarcasm as I think just yelling 'Project Fear' at everything is moronic.

Maybe just based on the statement of 'how do you justify this' as if you had some extra justification that doesn't exist for the remain side, making it a redundant point? Neither side can be truly held to account for everything said on either side so there's no justifying either sides wildest assertions.

Okay then that's fine if it was more sarcastic, thought you might have just been giving more a free pass on the other side Damn though, putin and hitler lol.

 

[Metallifux]

That's not what the data is showing. It's showing that those that are university educated tend to stay in the Remain camp.



I would say that the average person with a degree is relatively well educated. I agree with all of you that well-educated doesn't necessarily mean intelligent and visa versa. The point I'm trying to make is that someone middle class is more likely to be in the Remain camp. It's no wonder that those with degrees (who are dispropriately middle class) are also more likely to believe in the EU.

Doesn't the amount of tory MP's on the leave side dispute your comment about the middle classes?

 

[Roar87]

So Boris has just come out and compared the EU to Hitler lol, you would have thought after the Livingstone debacle even mentioning Hitler would be off the table....

Anyway, Project Fear anyone?

(Waits for the Brexiteers defense of why in this case it was a justifiable comparison )

Oh wow you want us to debate a headline instead of looking at the full speech he gave. The EU wants to created a United Europe, so did Hitler, so did the Romans. Is there something wrong with that statement that we need to defend?

 

[ReltonBFD]

Oh wow you want us to debate a headline instead of looking at the full speech he gave. The EU wants to created a United Europe, so did Hitler, so did the Romans. Is there something wrong with that statement that we need to defend?

People just hear Hitler and instantly denounce what ever has been said.

 

[McstylisT]

I vote OUT !!!

 

[Zethor]

Oh wow you want us to debate a headline instead of looking at the full speech he gave. The EU wants to created a United Europe, so did Hitler, so did the Romans. Is there something wrong with that statement that we need to defend?

Who is the EU?

 

[Freakbro]

Damn though, putin and hitler lol.

I know, ridiculous isn't it

Oh wow you want us to debate a headline instead of looking at the full speech he gave.

I can't believe you just said that

The EU wants to created a United Europe, so did Hitler, so did the Romans. Is there something wrong with that statement that we need to defend?

Err...Yes

I think the 'method' in which was being employed to unify Europe is all important when using Hitler as a comparison to the EU lol

So no, they are not comparable in any reasonable sense, but I was expecting such a weak response, so at least you didn't fail there.

 

[teejay73]

I vote to leave. Would like to raise a question though. Has anybody asked a somewhat more pertinent question about what effect the UK leaving would have on the EU? Would be interesting to hear peoples opinions on this.

 

[kindai]

I vote to leave. Would like to raise a question though. Has anybody asked a somewhat more pertinent question about what effect the UK leaving would have on the EU? Would be interesting to hear peoples opinions on this.

Domino effect, other nations would start having their own referendums, and before long it all goes to hell.


One can hope.