Caporegime
Prime Minister to use taxpayer funded civil servants to campaign for Britain to stay in the EU. We should be in no doubt that we're up against the full force of the establishment here.
Poll: The EU Referendum: What Will You Vote? (New Poll)
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Soldato
This debate has become too sensible. I can't wait for the pubs to shut and itchy to come back. I need me at least one cat gif per page of good debate!
Um, which establishment? Aren't the government ministers campaigning for Brexit also the establishment?
Soldato
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No, don't! You'll set the conspiracy buffs off again...
... Whatever happens, the house always wins...
*tinfoil hats distributed*See here for all of your feline needs: https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18049556&page=355
Caporegime
Ministers, even the Prime Minister, aren't really part of the establishment - they just work for it. I'd recommend reading Chris Mullin's book A Very British Coup to help distinguish between the establishment and politicians, and the sort of obstacles the former can put in place to prevent meaningful change in this country.
Caporegime
I don't often find parliament funny, but that "who are you?" Was a genuine lol moment.
Soldato
A book doesn't make it so. They are part of the establishment.
Caporegime
No but it might help you to understand things. If Jeremy Corbyn became PM would he be part of the establishment? I don't think so.
Wait... so when a government changes, and some policies change significantly... is that a change of establishment, or does the establishment behind the scenes simply change their minds about those issues?
Or is that only policies the shadow establishment don't want changed can ever be changed?
Do you have some examples of policies that are set by the shadow government, and can't be part of any party's manifesto? I'm curious to know.
Soldato
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They can't be, given they can get voted out at anytime which is the opposite of someone who is "established" no?
Right-wing news sources ranked by credibility:
The Financial Times
The Times
The Telegraph
The Daily Mail
The Daily Express
That racist old relative you have that retired to Spain but still doesn't like foreigners
Someone with a UKIP-based avatar on Twitter
Breitbart
The Financial Times
The Times
The Telegraph
The Daily Mail
The Daily Express
That racist old relative you have that retired to Spain but still doesn't like foreigners
Someone with a UKIP-based avatar on Twitter
Breitbart
But "the Westminster establishment" encompasses both the elected government and the elected opposition.
They are both considered the establishment, in truth.
To say that the establishment is only those who are pro-EU is very odd.
Soldato
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Right-wing news sources ranked by credibility:
Breitbart
O'rly?
Is it facts made political, or politically made facts? 
Sigh, Breitbart.
Associate
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Then why are these people being trained or educated in other countries but not ours? I don't disagree with you but there is definitely something wrong with our education system (and the focus on importing immigrants doesn't help) when we never have the skills at home, never have the incentive or infrastructure and push our own people downwards. I agree with you on the benefits but it's promoting other negatives to get this so creating other indirect costs. I agree on your view on problems with training but it's creating a bad culture and a worrying state of affairs for our own education and skills base internally.
I can't help but agree with others though, if the rest of the world is using other systems for migration then why would we be so heavily hindered by doing that ourselves? I see what you're saying but it just seems a persuit of maximum productivity and minimal costs and not much else. As we're probably aware, we'll still get the migrants anyway so it's not going to be such a drastic change but it encourages home growth as well to not be in the EU. EU is very business focused, it's the cheap labour imported approach but it's creating bad culture and internal problems (similar to EU democracy too). If we don't train our own people up because of the EU approach (since it does disincentivise even if not outlaw it) and we're losing democratic accountability I do fear the EU is going to eventually just create more problems. The longer we're integrated into this approach the more difficult it'll be to get back our own infrastructure, training and talent. Might not be a problem if we stay there and we can always invest the infrastructure if we choose and the EU gives us more money to do that so it was more food for thought than arguing though. Althought money for business isn't always the same as money for government, I'd have thought all these years in the EU should have left us with more prospects not less. If they fail to live up to there side of the referendum though I hope we create hell.
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honestly what a load of utter hairy man fruit.
seriously do you work at the cbi as that sounds like something lifted from their hymn sheet when it comes to free movement and immigration. anything to make it cheaper for industry.
il agree if you need someone for a short term contract or dont have the time to train someone up fair enough, but iv seen the same companies advertising the same adverts locally to me for over 5 years. they could have trained someone up and saved a fortune in agency/consultants cost by now but yet they carry on expecting fully qualified and experienced people to fall from the sky, and to hell with investing in people.
and still all we hear is how we have a skills shortage, new flash if companies are unwilling to invest in training up people we will always have a skills shortage and no amount of imports will fix that and the possible savings short term go out the window as that pool of talent grows ever smaller and people get paid more.
The funniest interview I ever was part of was for a job I didn't really want. So I was asking all sorts of questions (politely) about what opportunities existed in the company for training up and developing new skills.
They replied, completely matter-of-factly, that they didn't train their staff, as it wasn't cost effective. They had no training plans at all. Just didn't see the need. If they needed new skills, they would just hire someone who already had them. They basically said, "if you take this job that is the job you will be doing until you leave. We do not promote staff internally, we prefer to hire outside the company people who are already fully trained."
I will never forget that interview, because it is everything that is wrong with the so-called global economy. It works for business, but it royally ****s over people who would traditionally have risen through the ranks, furthering their training is they did so.
Today, you either teach yourself new skills in your own time and at your own expense, or get very lucky with an employer who bucks the trend. Otherwise, outsourcing and bringing in Indian labour is the order of the day.
But you can read exactly the same thing happening in the USA, so it's not exactly a problem with the EU.
Soldato
and pray tell who will fund the research they may want to do?
Soldato
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GAC said:
Education is a whole can of worms of its own. Did I suggest I want to eradicate the poor, the unskilled and the academically failed? The idea behind having a thriving economy, is to be able to afford to lift the lot of your citizenry up over time, whatever the social grade, and to grow the middle classes (well, unless you either don't believe in class or have a fiercly classist attitude against the 'middle-class pump' concept).
I do believe I've already recommended importing the German vocational education model, and having joint modern languages programmes with schools in Europe, however. Making our working classes, particularly youngsters, more mobile and better equipped to take up opportunities wherever they are. Naturally my solutions need the EU, to share the burden of getting the extra funding in place, and making it all a success; whilst giving our citizens both a larger pool of potential jobs, and an opportunity to get their training/education for less. Our higher education is good, but the vocational routes are very competitive on the continent too. It's a shame we don't use them more often.
Bits and bobs can be done outside of the bloc too. It'd just take more money, and you would have to overcome a lot of institutional inertia in the face of the economic re-alignment, which would be a higher priority if we depart.
Another obvious point is to forego our obsession with the end of year exam grades only, as a measure of competency. It's not great for vocational training. We need to be able to utilise the rest, whilst selecting the 'best'. Plus, if we do want more people going the more academic route, we need to expand distance and mature learning, to avoid locking people into a particular career path for life or trapping them in insecure jobs, without a means out of the rut.
The details would really fall upon which political ideology you subscribe to. I should imagine the current government would continue applying the stick and tough love. I'm not so sure it'd get them the skills and the numbers they need to cut immigration en-masse, though. For now, we are facing a major referendum, and not much money is forthcoming from the treasury. The academies programme, plus the reshuffled student finance arrangements, is what we are betting on for now.
Nonetheless, whatever you do, immigration plugs a gap, and we need it. Feel free to offer your Out-flavoured alternative options.
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Associate
Cos of fishing in Scotland that were reduce as Spanish stolen oor fish so gimme us back and access large area for fish... I would say better leave EU rather than stay in.. It too much. So back to old one before join Europe..
Soldato
I think you need to think about the broader and longer term consequences over the next 20 -50 years, instead of 'Cos of fishing in Scotland that were reduce as Spanish stolen oor fish so gimme us back and access large area for fish'...
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