Poll: The EU Referendum: What Will You Vote? (New Poll)

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?


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This is what Cameron appears to have got:

Migration: The prime minister got his emergency welfare brake. But it is not clear how easy it will be to pull that brake or how long it will last, says the BBC's James Landale.

Benefits: While the in-work benefits of EU migrants will be curbed for four years if other countries agree, they will be gradually restored the longer they stay in the UK. EU migrants will be able to send child benefit back home, but would get a lower level if the cost of living in the country where the child is is lower. Mr Cameron had wanted to block all of it.

Sovereignty: The PM has secured a clear legal statement that the UK is not committed to further political integration and that the phrase "ever closer union" cannot be used to integrate the EU further. But it is not yet clear when or how this will be incorporated into the EU treaties. He has also got new powers for national parliaments to block new EU laws but the thresholds are pretty high before those powers can be used.

Competitiveness: The PM has got some language that commits the EU to strengthen the internal market and cut red tape. But they have been promising to do that for years.

Protecting non-euro countries: There will be a new mechanism to get the eurozone to think again about decisions that could hit the City of London.

Security: The PM has got some unexpected gains, making it easier for countries to stop terror suspects coming into the country even if the threat they pose is not imminent. There will also be a crackdown to stop people using sham marriages and other loopholes to gain access to the EU.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35467479

Not a lot there and still an awful detail to be seen and agreed by the rest of the EU. Seems like a very small step into a road that has many obstacles on its path.
 
What else could he have done?

Cameron's problem is that he's failed at every stage to build the kind of diplomatic connections that he needs to be effective in Europe. It began with the utter, rank, stupidity of pulling the Conservatives out of the EPP and thereby, at a stroke, severing his parties biggest and best means to make important connections within Europe and it hasn't been much better since. Dramatic stunts such as tying a renegotiation to a referendum have just weakened his hand further.
 
Do you think being a nice guy with them would have got us eg. out of free movement of people, or allowed us to horribly undermine it by discriminating against migrants in the way which would have appeased the British eurosceptics?

I think Cameron would have been a lot more effective in achieving his aims in Europe if he was a more effective diplomat. I don't believe that an ending of free movement in the EU is an achievable goal (thankfully!).
 
I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone, but I'll give it a go one last time.:D

Lets make our country great again, lets control our own future.

Sentimental bombast is all well and good... but where's your costed plan for the Brexit scenario? I'll take a draft! :p

Let's assume you got everything you wanted out of the referendum; how would you actually achieve any of the things that you seem to either take for granted or ramble on about, without consideration of any possible knock-on effects?

Like broken records you keep banging on about the Kipper Trinity: 'immigration, sovereignty, control borders'; but the nearer we're getting to the actual voting, the more I believe you just haven't got a clue about any of the things you bring up, let alone a plan!

For laughs, let's further assume you're the leader of the official Leave camp (if it ever forms) on air during the campaign, and are facing Neil, Paxman or debating Cameron head-to-head:

'Look, people know your stance, and we grant you your rough figure of extra £20 billion a year to start with; what will you spend it on?'

'Immigration, sovereignty, control borders!'

'You're a passionate chap, and that's great, but let's get back to the meat of the question: how will you prevent the country's GDP from falling during and past transition to being outside the EU, and markets from punishing us?'

'How will you safeguard jobs, build more houses, security arrangements, and prevent public services from being short-staffed and underfunded (these are our top concerns connected to almost all types of elections)?'

'Well, £20 billion is a lot of money! It'll surely do some good in our pocket!'

'It really isn't -- within the margin of error on our GDP figures, in fact -- how would you replace all of the EU's former benefits and mitigate all of its purported shortcomings on this much extra cash?'

'If you need more, where would that cash come from: more taxes, extra borrowing or further cuts?'

'Well, really, whoever's in government then will have to make that decision.'

'So, you're asking the British people to take it completely on faith that things will remain the same, or get better, if we leave the EU at any cost and without a solid plan? Can you share some statistics underpinning your confidence?'

'Let's make our country great again, let's control our own future!'

'Even if it threatens our economic recovery and costs people jobs?'

'What would you say to our regions and constituent nations which will lose out on EU funding?'

'Erm... We'll have to take some pain, but we'll trade our way out of it...'

'With whom? The partners' you've just waved goodbye to, and who may impose trade tariffs shortly, or the USA and China who are repositioning their investments to Ireland, France and Germany as we speak?'

'Erm...well..Commonwealth!'

'Really now! And how much that would cost? And how much that would bring in? Are you sure you won't end up with an even larger net trade deficit and higher prices that way?'

'Nah, it's all good. I believe in Britain!'

'I don't feel you're fully cognizant of the distances and trade difficulties involved.'

'Don't be negative! Be proud!'

'So, you don't have the details of your planned trade deals either... Just going to wing it, are you?'

'Look, we'll sort it out somehow! More importantly: Immigration, sovereignty, control borders!'

'Okay... so you want to leave at all costs for the aforementioned reasons, without a credible plan of action to show voters, and saddle whoever is in government with all the difficult decisions and responsibilities following an exit?'

'Now, can I be entirely honest with you...'

[Cue typical pundit/debate slaughter of people who turn up unprepared!]

People of the strong Leave persuasion sorely underestimate how much common bread-and-butter issues matter to the undecided, moderate voters; zealotry just won't swing them. Cameron will do much better in that grilling regardless of what you think of his competencies.

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As for Cameron's announced draft of a deal: he did alright given the pace of talks and the deadline he set for himself. Could've done better, could've got nothing; but at the very least he has something that can be scrutinised and costed! The Leave camp hasn't got much past empty rhetoric!

Again, our current standing in Europe has much to do with over two decades of neglecting its diplomatic channels and losing valuable allies to dithering and occasional stunts for the amusement of the peanut gallery at home!

There's no great conspiracy against us, or unwillingness to compromise, just lost years which make it difficult to move as rapidly as people seem to imagine is really possible, taking into account what the world's gone through after 2008.
 
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Nothing about the next unifying treaty, timetabled for 2025 or earlier, which will give the EU power on:

Property law
Banking regulation
Regulation of capital markets
Wages in the Euro area
Corporation tax, and other "competitive taxes"
Oversight over national parliaments

Replacement of member state representation at international bodies (such as the IMF) with EU representation.

Along with that, it will add:

Euro area banking union
Increased deposits in the ESM, from all states
A new EU wide deposit insurance scheme


Some of this is euro-area specific. Most of it isn't, and will affect the UK directly.


Nothing at all on that from Dave. Funny that.
 
So what I can see if that he's asked for cancellation on benefits for non-tax paying foreign people for 4 years and a cancellation of the sending benefits home e.g. child benefit.

It's an emergency brake we have always had the chance to use although it requires most nations to agree to allow it and now we look likely to leave the EU it has suddenly been approved for 4 years... funny that? BUT after 6 months they could cancel it so it means absolutely nothing and is just a trick of illusion to get us to look elsewhere.

And with regards to sending benefits home instead of keeping them in the country to be spent in the country contributing to the economy it is not allowed....

Do I have that right? :confused:

I'm all for immigration - in the right way and for the right people we need to make out country a better nation. :)

Its also a one time break csn never be used again.

And the stopping benifits will affect british people too as thats the only way to get around the equality laws. So basicaly british peopel cant get in work benifits till 20
 
A) the devil's in the detail. Can you furnish us with more information? The vague way in which you present it is just designed to pray on the fears people have, and isn't helpful in the slightest (in terms of furthering the debate, etc).
B) why would he worry about that now, when it could be a decade away? And parties could offer a referendum on that future treaty when it becomes a reality.

A) Here is the full report:

http://ec.europa.eu/priorities/sites/beta-political/files/5-presidents-report_en.pdf

Every major EU treaty (Lisbon, Maastricht etc..) have been preceded by a similar report.

B) It is important now, because its important for the UK to realise there is no status quo. Cameron has tried to argue with his negotiation that there is no further integration into the EU, but this report flies in the face of that directly.

To remain is to integrate.
 
Sentimental bombast is all well and good... but where's your costed plan for the Brexit scenario? I'll take a draft! :p
Nice FUD (Fear, uncertainly and doubt) post there datalol-jack.

Both sides are currently using that tactic. :p

I haven't read anywhere that in the event of a leave vote we would instantly exit the EU...? Or what framework would be in place if we did?
 
Nice FUD (Fear, uncertainly and doubt) post there datalol-jack.

Both sides are currently using that tactic. :p

I haven't read anywhere that in the event of a leave vote we would instantly exit the EU...? Or what framework would be in place if we did?

The Tory boy has not come up with a plan for an exit yet, as he think we will be dumb enough to vote to stay in.
 
so the so called emergency break , will see the uk goverment going cap in hand to you guessed it those unelected bereucarats in brussels.

and they will decide if it can be used what a farce, the PM has come back with nothing to change my out vote.
 
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Well, no, because that's about wanting to basically have a fiscal Union, and general adoption of common features, for countries in the monetary union. On my phone, at work, so correct me if I'm wrong.

That's completely understandable, given the issues we've had with the Eurozone, and them doing that doesn't mean we have to be captured with it... and it can't be imposed on us.

Most of the fiscal union parts are euro-area specific, but some financial regulation will be EU wide. Other parts, such as corporation tax, property rights, rules over services etc will apply to all states. Non euro states could also be asked to contribute to the various funds for the euro too, the UK already contributes partly to the ESM for instance.

Removal of UK presence at the IMF and other institutions is implicit.
 
And no new treaty can be forced on us, so do you really think they're going to draft anything awful? And why would eg. EU wide rules on property rights necessarily be a bad thing?

I'm finding it quite hard to comprehend the logic behind your posts. Yes, they could well draft something I consider awful for the UK. Yes I consider the UK losing sovereign representation on international bodies a very bad thing.


No, technically no treaty can be forced. They can just make minor modifications of no major consequence and get nations to vote again, indefinitely. Its how the EU have got they're previous treaties pushed through, its how they'll get this one done.


Would EU wide property rights be inherently worse than UK ones? Probably not, but it might. For example, the UK and London in particular has a major problem with foreign buyers of property. Handing over property right law to the continent will limit our ability to solve this.

Its another power handed over to Brussels. Once gone, we won't be able to make any changes ourselves without majority EU approval.



Every step that the Euro area makes towards further integration hampers the ability of the UK to make changes for our own benefit, we'll simply be outvoted. We already are. The document I linked only exacerbates this issue, and nothing that Cameron "brought back" changes it one iota.
 

Sorry I started to read but then I got bored... lol.

Costed plan? Easy... the money comes from people who have jobs who pay taxes and goes back to only them....

The money stays in the UK which will strengthen our economy as the spending will largely be in the UK of that extra bit. It's all part of the circle. People pay in, people get into trouble, the government pays out. Short term there will be a deficit as we've already paid out so much in the past 20 years to non-UK workers.

Simples. :)

I didn't realise the emergency brake could only be used once? I know that nearly every country in the EU has agree either to impose or take it off though.

Angela Merkel is doing what Hitler couldn't....
 
It would be really great too surely for the UK to be able to decide what, how, and who it trades with rather than being 'allowed' by the EU?

Would also create jobs in import both in the government and private firms - a good thing surely?
 
Would EU wide property rights be inherently worse than UK ones? Probably not, but it might. For example, the UK and London in particular has a major problem with foreign buyers of property. Handing over property right law to the continent will limit our ability to solve this.

You assume that the UK govt wants to "solve" this? Where's the evidence they even consider it a problem? When many of the new build houses in London are sold at auctions in places like Malaysia?

It's not like foreigners are buying places originally sold to Brits. A good chunk of those new builds are specifically built for foreign owners...

Also there's a massive conflict of interest with so many of our MPs (in all parties) having huge property portfolios. I wouldn't trust them to do the right thing by anyone other than themselves.
 
after seeing "the deal" which is still to be tweaked even more it got me wondering maybe cameron isnt as pro eu as everyone thinks. maybe its been some big act and he really wants the uk to vote out hence such a wishy washy deal thats so open to interpretation its hardly changes anything.
 
after seeing "the deal" which is still to be tweaked even more it got me wondering maybe cameron isnt as pro eu as everyone thinks. maybe its been some big act and he really wants the uk to vote out hence such a wishy washy deal thats so open to interpretation its hardly changes anything.

I think he's making out he's struggling with the British people but stay in the EU, then when he loses the next election we're still in Europe and he gets a cushy job on a nice wage in a nice sunny place in Europe for 'saving the EU'..... ala Tony Blair?

Cynic? Totally... lol
 
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