Poll: The EU Referendum: What Will You Vote? (New Poll)

[GAC]

At the lowest end of the pay scale there's the minimum wage, so it's literally impossible for the wages at that end to fall by much (and rightly so).

apart from when it does, but according to many on here thats very rare

 

[FoxEye]

At the lowest end of the pay scale there's the minimum wage, so it's literally impossible for the wages at that end to fall by much (and rightly so).

And as you said, it's not just pay, conditions can get worse - and they have, for many.

There has been a rise in services where the employee bears all the risk (are forced to register as self employed, buy their own equipment, pay their own fuel costs, must accept 0 hour contracts, etc, etc). Eg delivery drivers who must use their own vehicle.

Conditions in a whole host of jobs are getting worse, as employers know there are always people to fill those (min wage) jobs, no matter how one-sided the terms of the employment are.

 

[Woden]

Conditions are getting worse but it's not immigration or the EU that's the cause.

Or government are actively trying to make things worse for employees, what little strides have been made have been from the EU.

 

[FoxEye]

Or government are actively trying to make things worse for employees, what little strides have been made have been from the EU.

I'm not going to disagree with that

Leaving the EU would be terrible for the worst-paid and most exploited in our society, because these are the people the UK govt cares about the least. And if their interests are at odds with the interests of employers and business owners, then there is never any doubt who the UK govt will side with.

 

[D.P.]

Has immigration boosted wages?

For some jobs it has, a large US study showed there was an overall net positive increase in salaries due to immigration.

It's also not hard to see when looking at the statistics. On average immigrants to the UK are more highly educated and skilled than the average British citizen, and thus they get paid more on average, thus the average salary can increase

 

[D.P.]

And as you said, it's not just pay, conditions can get worse - and they have, for many.

There has been a rise in services where the employee bears all the risk (are forced to register as self employed, buy their own equipment, pay their own fuel costs, must accept 0 hour contracts, etc, etc). Eg delivery drivers who must use their own vehicle.

Conditions in a whole host of jobs are getting worse, as employers know there are always people to fill those (min wage) jobs, no matter how one-sided the terms of the employment are.

The work conditions have nothing to do with immigration though but economics. The rise of things like delivery services where employees use their own car as you point out, have absolutely no relevance to immigration, it is just a straightforward good business model. Amazon now can only deliver products within 2 hours by leveraging a large network of delivery people with their own vehicle. It is like Uber, taxi drivers using their own cars such that costs are reduced. Nothing to do with immigration.


A lot of the work condition changes are related to economic factors. Companies have not recovered from the recession, are expert ing in erased costs and reduced sales. THe only way they can combat that is to reduce running costs. That will occur regardless of immigration. In fact, immigration is the most powerful tool we have to increase demand and improve the health of the economy and company profitability.


Furthermore, if you are concerned about workers rights the last thing you want to do is leave the EU. That working time directive you talk about -that is form the EU. If you are worried about workers rights then you should be kicking up a fuss about such issues, not looking for a scape goat such as immigrants to blame. Blame the conservative government for not putting workers rights as a priority

 

[Danthus]

For some jobs it has, a large US study showed there was an overall net positive increase in salaries due to immigration.

It's also not hard to see when looking at the statistics. On average immigrants to the UK are more highly educated and skilled than the average British citizen, and thus they get paid more on average, thus the average salary can increase

Where I live, every night there is a car park where 10 large coaches pick up people, predominantly immigrants, what sort of work do you think they do?

I could list lots of employers locally that use immigrant labour, most via agencies. i doubt their wages are much more than the NMW.

 

[scorza]

Conditions are getting worse but it's not immigration or the EU that's the cause.

Or government are actively trying to make things worse for employees, what little strides have been made have been from the EU.

Tell that to the guy who can't get a job warehousing in Stoke on Trent because he can't speak Polish

 

[FoxEye]

Furthermore, if you are concerned about workers rights the last thing you want to do is leave the EU. That working time directive you talk about -that is form the EU. If you are worried about workers rights then you should be kicking up a fuss about such issues, not looking for a scape goat such as immigrants to blame. Blame the conservative government for not putting workers rights as a priority

I don't want to leave the EU tho... I voted "stay" in the poll here.

And I think freedom of movement will be a required part of any trade agreement we reach with the EU if we leave.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freed...#Transitional_provisions_in_new_member_states

I think we'll be forced to accept free movement regardless of the referendum outcome.

 

[Woden]

Tell that to the guy who can't get a job warehousing in Stoke on Trent because he can't speak Polish

Link?

 

[D.P.]

Where I live, every night there is a car park where 10 large coaches pick up people, predominantly immigrants, what sort of work do you think they do?

I could list lots of employers locally that use immigrant labour, most via agencies. i doubt their wages are much more than the NMW.

Anecdote is not data

 

[Orionaut]

Tell that to the guy who can't get a job warehousing in Stoke on Trent because he can't speak Polish

Same is happening in Scunthorpe!

 

[Danthus]

There are anecdotes like that from all over the country.

Sometimes what you see is a good reflection of what is happening.

 

[D.P.]

I don't want to leave the EU tho... I voted "stay" in the poll here.

And I think freedom of movement will be a required part of any trade agreement we reach with the EU if we leave.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freed...#Transitional_provisions_in_new_member_states

I think we'll be forced to accept free movement regardless of the referendum outcome.

Well then my Argent doesn't apply to you, it applies to posters who want to leave the EU because they don't like foreigners.

 

[D.P.]

There are anecdotes like that from all over the country.

Sometimes what you see is a good reflection of what is happening.

The plural of anecdote is still not data. The empirical evidence is very clear.

I'm not saying that this doesn't happen, but it is important t to loom at the complete picture. EU immigrants take are more skilled and educated than british workers. Thus they paid more on average.

EU migration is bumodal, thete are both unskilled and highly skilled labour pools that both help the econony.

 

[Orionaut]

PS

Am pleased that OCUK has somehow modified the swear filter!

In the past I found "Scunthorpe" censored!

Thank you.

 

[Telecaster]

I'm torn. I'm naturally a bit of a lefty but I feel the urge to vote 'Leave', but it seems most of the "get out" gang banging the drum are swivel eyed right wingers which has me troubled.

 

[D.P.]

That happened in a country with a tough immigration system (albeit with loads of illegal migration). So surely we could similarly benefit if we had a tough system?

The average is good, but it could be even better if we could stop the less desirable migrants/people who are a net drain but don't fill a gap we need filled/etc...

Why don't we start by deporting the native undesirables?

Buy aeiously, how do you propose to identify undesirable immigrants in a consistent way? Have a a question and a checkbox as they enter?
Britain, like the US, benefits from both skilled and unskilled migrants. So what are you going to do. Have an apple tree and ask the migrant to pick fruit, given a score out of 10 for how many them pick in 10 minutes, how carefully they place the apples in a box?

We shouldn't let in known criminals enter, but the EU actually makes it easier to track criminals internationally

 

[Danthus]

How do you identify desirable immigrants?

 

[Danthus]

Here are two interesting stories.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35559540

http://www.theguardian.com/business...eel-industry-blocking-eu-lesser-duty-proposal