Poll: The EU Referendum: What Will You Vote?

[Amp34]

We should restart the poll again methinks, to recalibrate opinion.

Cannot believe that we are so 50:50 on this. It seems a no brainer to approve staying in.

You forget what forum you're on. If it's 50:50 on this forum it's unlikely to be remotely close when the UK elects to stay in...

Remember this is a forum where a rape thread ends up with multiple posts about the guys ethnicity/religion like many other threads hijacked by them.

 

[StriderX]

You forget what forum you're on. If it's 50:50 on this forum it's unlikely to be remotely close when the UK elects to stay in...

Remember this is a forum where a rape thread ends up with multiple posts about the guys ethnicity/religion like many other threads hijacked by them.

We were right with the election result... Saying that, there is no apathetic option.

 

[Freakbro]

That is literally impossible. Please provide one of these studies so I can laugh at it then tell you why it's wrong.

The first hit on Google is a study by the London School of Economics has no effect on wages or unemployment rates.

It's not "literally impossible"; it's how the world actually works. In the same way and for the same reasons that big countries don't have higher unemployment to small countries, adding immigrants to the working population doesn't increase unemployment. Here's the Migration Observatory's summary, you can follow some links if you like.

I eagerly await your critical analysis of the reports Scorza, detailing why the 10-30 years of various data analysed doesn't support the conclusions proposed

Or is you're rebuttal going to be more along the lines of

 

[scorza]

I eagerly await your critical analysis of the reports Scorza, detailing why the 10-30 years of various data analysed doesn't support the conclusions proposed

Or is you're rebuttal going to be more along the lines of

...

That wasn't what I was disputing - unemployment is more complex than a simple cause-effect relationship with one variable. It's basically a question of supply and demand, the supply of labour can go up as long as the demand is there and thanks to the excellent foundations left by the last labour government we've good demand in our economy for some time.

What I was disputing was this:

On average, each extra person in the economy adds enough to the economy to employ one more person...

Just think about how that would work for a second. You can keep adding unlimited numbers of people to the population without causing a problem. Demand for labour in the UK has been high but it's not infinite - that's pure fantasy economics.

Today is the day for the world's worst dinner party, where the leaders of 27 EU states have dinner and listen to David Cameron talk about his proposals for EU reforms, one of which is to stop EU migrants claiming UK benefits until they've worked here for 4 years. Naturally the other EU governments are against this (why wouldn't they be? it's basically free money for their citizens courtesy of UK taxpayer).

 

[Terminal_Boy]

LTC Dave is going to get zero concessions from the EU, not that he's trying very hard.

After all, he'll be riding the EU gravy train for life after he's out of Number 10 in 2020.

 

[Trifid]

But that is an issue with UK immigration policy, not the EU.

UK immigration policy is influenced by EU immigration policy. We are aggressively hindering the ability for the rest of the world to live and work here because of the lack of control in EU immigration policy.

 

[Sliver]

Voted to remain a member. I honestly believe we can achieve more if we work together for the greater good. Staying out of Europe seems like a negative approach to me.

 

[Mr Jack]

Just think about how that would work for a second. You can keep adding unlimited numbers of people to the population without causing a problem. Demand for labour in the UK has been high but it's not infinite - that's pure fantasy economics.

*sigh* No, it's not infinite; that's not what I said. It's size is defined by the number of people in it and, on average, each person working in the economy creates enough work to employ one more. This must be the case or we'd see unemployment spiral upwards with population growth and big countries would have higher unemployment than small countries.

Today is the day for the world's worst dinner party, where the leaders of 27 EU states have dinner and listen to David Cameron talk about his proposals for EU reforms, one of which is to stop EU migrants claiming UK benefits until they've worked here for 4 years.

Cameron's utterly incompetent in Europe, I can't imagine there's much chance of him getting any significant changes from the EU; he's spent the last decade failing to build alliances in the EU. Why would EU leaders give much time to his proposals anyway? Why trash key parts of the EU project for a country that you can't be sure will even stay part of the EU?

 

[scorza]

*sigh* No, it's not infinite; that's not what I said. It's size is defined by the number of people in it and, on average, each person working in the economy creates enough work to employ one more. This must be the case or we'd see unemployment spiral upwards with population growth and big countries would have higher unemployment than small countries.

It's not the case, population growth does create demand but not at the rate of one person's worth of demand per person. Demand for employment is a complex formula based on lots of key factors including liquidity, employment law, taxation, productivity.

Cameron's utterly incompetent in Europe, I can't imagine there's much chance of him getting any significant changes from the EU; he's spent the last decade failing to build alliances in the EU. Why would EU leaders give much time to his proposals anyway? Why trash key parts of the EU project for a country that you can't be sure will even stay part of the EU?

Perhaps they should give him significant amounts of time and respect because he's the Prime Minister of a valued EU nation which is a net contributor to the EU and they want the UK to stay in the EU.

 

[deuse]

I feel that leaving would, in reality, not satisfy the main reasons why the average person on the street thinks we should leave:

-UK employment
As many have said studies show immigration does not negatively impact employment

I stopped reading after that. When I was young and immigration was low there was plenty of jobs.

Companies would also train you up to do the job they need. Now none of that happens.

 

[mid_gen]

UK immigration policy is influenced by EU immigration policy. We are aggressively hindering the ability for the rest of the world to live and work here because of the lack of control in EU immigration policy.

This is a big issue....in order to try and placate the anti-immigration crowd the UK is basically making it next to impossible for non-EU nationals to come and work in the UK. A friend of mine's other half from Australia (a fully-qualified, working nurse) was kicked out a few months back, totally bonkers.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

I stopped reading after that. When I was young and immigration was low there was plenty of jobs.

Companies would also train you up to do the job they need. Now none of that happens.

But why would that be down solely to immigration. Literately loads has change and even in the last 8 years has there been significant events to drastically change employment which they themselves have an effect on immigration to an extent, the immigration does not directly cause a rise in unemployment.

In the last decade two decades we have adopted a 'everyone should have a degree' attitude. As many people as possible are encouraged to be pushed through university despite their respective career paths not requiring the qualification. Courses such as Business management and the like have boomed, they often have 10 times the number of students as other classes such as Maths or Physics. Before, you would start work in an office and work your way up, not require a degree to come in at a lower-middle level. I think it is courses such as these including some major changes in the attitude of education which has effected the way companies employ people rather than immigration.

 

[deuse]

But why would that be down solely to immigration. Literately loads has change and even in the last 8 years has there been significant events to drastically change employment which they themselves have an effect on immigration to an extent, the immigration does not directly cause a rise in unemployment.

In the last decade two decades we have adopted a 'everyone should have a degree' attitude. As many people as possible are encouraged to be pushed through university despite their respective career paths not requiring the qualification. Courses such as Business management and the like have boomed, they often have 10 times the number of students as other classes such as Maths or Physics. Before, you would start work in an office and work your way up, not require a degree to come in at a lower-middle level. I think it is courses such as these including some major changes in the attitude of education which has effected the way companies employ people rather than immigration.

I've been in work since 1972(now retired) And I could walk out of one job in to another the same day. Try that now!

Then we moved from the common market to what is now the EU and the UK went to pot. I'll tell you how bad it's got.

When I was 14 I used to go where they was building a housing estate and ask for weekend
work loading up breeze blocks for the bedroom walls. I used to earn £5 a day which awesome
Try that now....not a hope in hell. To many rules and to many people and not enough places to live in.

 

[Danthus]

There is almost an unlimited source of cheap labour available to UK business as a result of being part of the EU.

I find it hard to believe that it has had no impact on jobs and wages in this country.

 

[Terminal_Boy]

It's had a huge impact. Unskilled and semi-skilled labour and lower service industry roles are filled by a majority of non-Britons now.

 

[Danthus]

If by 'too many rules', you mean that to work as a labourer/tradesman you need a CSCS card which isn't difficult to get but which you can take with you between jobs, then yeah. Otherwise no, it'd be quite easy to do that...

It is easy to get.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34575170

 

[Freakbro]

There is almost an unlimited source of cheap labour available to UK business as a result of being part of the EU.

I find it hard to believe that it has had no impact on jobs and wages in this country.

Lot's of real world results are counter-intuative though, and this is what studies using the available data are saying

It's had a huge impact. Unskilled and semi-skilled labour and lower service industry roles are filled by a majority of non-Britons now.

Ok, even in the reports they acknowledge there has been a small negative effect on young & low paid employment from immigration, but the overall effect to the country has only been a positive boost to employment, wages and GDP

I know what people's gut feelings are telling them and I hear plenty of anecdotal eveidence myself, but report after report seems to be saying different.

 

[Danthus]

Ok, even in the reports they acknowledge there has been a small negative effect on young & low paid employment from immigration, but the overall effect to the country has only been a positive boost to employment, wages and GDP

Immigration has boosted wages?

The mass movement is good for big businesses because it keeps their labour costs down. what is good for big business may not be good for the low paid workers of this country.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

Who needs evidence when you can remember and brag about the good ol' days

 

[deuse]

If by 'too many rules', you mean that to work as a labourer/tradesman you need a CSCS card which isn't difficult to get but which you can take with you between jobs, then yeah. Otherwise no, it'd be quite easy to do that...

When your 14 yoa? that would be a no. And there wasn't any exams needed then. Our parents taught us common sense.