• Competitor rules

    Please remember that any mention of competitors, hinting at competitors or offering to provide details of competitors will result in an account suspension. The full rules can be found under the 'Terms and Rules' link in the bottom right corner of your screen. Just don't mention competitors in any way, shape or form and you'll be OK.

** The Official Nvidia GeForce 'Pascal' Thread - for general gossip and discussions **

Soldato
Joined
30 Nov 2011
Posts
11,358
You say that - out of the dozens of gamers I know,only a tiny fraction seem to have cards that are massively over £300,and they are all hardware enthusiasts anyway. Even on the hardware enthusiast biased Steam survey,the top three cards were the GTX970,GTX960 and GTX750TI FFS.

Both AMD and Nvidia know very well if they push the majority purchasers too much,people won't bother.

People forget there were silly expensive E-PEEN edition cards going back yonks - 8800 Ultra,X1950XTX,etc and they were of little consequence to most gamers.

You might want to actually go and look at the steam survey before calling it "enthusiast biased"

Since December it's been completely screwed and now lists 70% of PC's as being DX8 and of the small number of DX11 PC's, 50%intel and 50% AMD 5000 series

It's results are well and truly worthless now, not that they were any good to begin with.
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
31 Oct 2002
Posts
9,958
The £700 was reserved for Asus ;) :D :p

Tbh I think nVidia are going to try and create a new pricepoint for a premium 'not quite Titan' card. They were being super-generous (for nVidia!) with the last Ti imo to fend off the Fury X (and it was a job well done if the **** poor sales I've been hearing about are true!!).

£650-£700, maybe a touch higher at launch :)

Once AMD go under, you can add some zeroes to those figures, and a few more smilies, good job man.
 
Soldato
Joined
22 Oct 2008
Posts
11,563
Location
Lisburn, Northern Ireland
and this is why people massively overpay for things without thinking.

Why it matters what chip it is, is because of what is a fair price. A chip based on a 300mm^2 core costs way less than half to produce compared to something that is 600mm^2. But if you're willing to pay Nvidia the same price for the 300mm^2 core as the 600mm^2 core then you're choosing to be ripped off.

The world used to work in general on a principle of this costs X to produce + Y to develop so we charge you X + a Y/expected sales + a fair profit. Now it works as, we charge you x + y/expected sales + a massive and unjustified profit and see if any people will still buy it or not.

I won't pay £400+ for an Iphone that is realistically profitable and fair for a company to sell at £200 easily, not least when all the extra profits got to a few people and the people making them get utterly screwed. I wouldn't pay £500 for a 1440p/144hz/27" panel because that pricing is nuts, I waited and got the exact same panel for £270 which still likely had a reasonable margin in it. I won't pay £500 for a gpu based off a 300mm^2 core today and wait for the company to release a 600mm^2 core, price it at £500 and drop the 300mm^2 core pricing down to £250.... because it's profitable and fairly priced at £250 so I refuse to pay £500 for it just because they want to see if they can milk customers for a while at a higher price.

I don't expect everyone to think like that, though I believe they should as ultimately paying whatever a company demands because people have no ability to see what a fair price is and refuse to pay more is only screwing themselves.

So yes, it's actually very important which core it's based off, how it's marketed and it's price because Nvidia have already with Kepler done the whole, lets name a midrange cheap to produce core like a high end core and get people who don't know better to pay high end prices for it for a year till we start to price it fairly again.

In effect most companies don't rip customers off, customers participate and choose to be ripped off. But if customers collectively choose not to be ripped off they end up with the same cards, cheaper, and the next cards cheaper, and the next cards cheaper, etc. Companies do what customers let them get away with doing and there is entirely no benefit to customers paying more than a fair price for anything.

Best post on here squire. Bravo. Exactly same as my own train of thought.
 
Soldato
Joined
30 Nov 2011
Posts
11,358
Nvidia have only gotten away with it because their "mid range" part has competed on performance with AMD's "highend" part.

If AMD have now solved their perf/mm issues and have gone back to targeting perf/$ then we should see some actual competition back in the market place...
 
Soldato
Joined
3 Jun 2012
Posts
10,966
Just a shame the sheep will still buy them at the crazy price point anyway.

In this thread there is a poster who things NVIDIA was being Super generous for selling the 980ti at around £600.... Really? There was a time the high end cards sold for £350 each. Yet you think £600-£800 is acceptable?

Special people indeed
 
Caporegime
Joined
23 Apr 2014
Posts
29,998
Location
Chadsville
The high end card has never been £350 on release from my memory, the 8800gtx (around 10 years since release) which was a very popular card was around £500 I believe and you also had the ultra model above that. If you take into account inflation and the price of the £ against the $ right now it would be around the same amount if not more.

I don't believe the lowest price of a 980ti was £600 on release either.
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
3 Jun 2012
Posts
10,966
The high end card has never been £350 on release from my memory, the 8800gtx (around 10 years since release) which was a very popular card was around £500 I believe and you also had the ultra model above that. If you take into account inflation and the price of the £ against the $ right now it would be around the same amount if not more.

I don't believe the lowest price of a 980ti was £600 on release either.

the 4870x2 which was THE TOP OF THE TOP back in its day was less then £375 retail.

the 8800 ULTRA set a new president of stupid high prices.

Where AMD kept them nice and low where they should have been.

not my fault you think this is ok :(
 
Caporegime
Joined
23 Apr 2014
Posts
29,998
Location
Chadsville
the 4870x2 which was THE TOP OF THE TOP back in its day was less then £375 retail.

the 8800 ULTRA set a new president of stupid high prices.

Where AMD kept them nice and low where they should have been.

not my fault you think this is ok :(

AMD has not promised too much when they stated that their HD 4870 X2 will be the fastest graphics card in the world. The HD 4870 X2 leads our testing with a 14% performance advantage over the NVIDIA GTX 280. However, this price will cost you. $549 is a huge amount of money which results in the worst performance per dollar ratio of all cards on the market today.

lol

Also iirc 2008 was a very strong year for £/$ exchange rate which has a massive effect on GPU pricing.
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
3 Jun 2012
Posts
10,966
AMD has not promised too much when they stated that their HD 4870 X2 will be the fastest graphics card in the world. The HD 4870 X2 leads our testing with a 14% performance advantage over the NVIDIA GTX 280. However, this price will cost you. $549 is a huge amount of money which results in the worst performance per dollar ratio of all cards on the market today.

lol

Also iirc 2008 was a very strong year for £/$ exchange rate which has a massive effect on GPU pricing.

And?
My point still stands.
GPU prices at the moment are FAR FAR too high.
Because people are willing to pay it.

We all know these prices are far inflated for no reason.

I wont be discussing this anymore.
 
Caporegime
Joined
23 Apr 2014
Posts
29,998
Location
Chadsville
Your point doesn't stand at all, you cherry picked a card that still had awful performance for dollar at the time the pound was the strongest it has been against the dollar for the past 10 years.

I'm sure someone else can do the math but £375 at that time wouldn't be far off £500 today.

FYI the exchange rate today a £ gets you 1.43 dollars, back in 2008 it peaked at over 2 dollars.
 
Caporegime
Joined
24 Sep 2008
Posts
38,280
Location
Essex innit!
Those who pay it are so minuscule, it has no resemblance on the market. Titans/Ultras/FX are aimed at such a small segment of the market and the majority of people buy 280/960 type cards. If people think it is far too expensive, then don't buy and buy the cheaper cards. It isn't a given that you MUST HAVE the high end cards to enjoy games etc.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
33,188
AMD has not promised too much when they stated that their HD 4870 X2 will be the fastest graphics card in the world. The HD 4870 X2 leads our testing with a 14% performance advantage over the NVIDIA GTX 280. However, this price will cost you. $549 is a huge amount of money which results in the worst performance per dollar ratio of all cards on the market today.

lol

Also iirc 2008 was a very strong year for £/$ exchange rate which has a massive effect on GPU pricing.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2584/9

Techpowerup used to be disgustingly anti AMD, around the 4780x2 and 6990 era they had a habit of randomly removing the benchmarks that showed AMD in a positive light. There was also a history of showing epic scaling on AMD xfire in one review then with some Nvidia card provided for a future review that same game now shows no scaling on xfire with worse drivers used giving poor performance across the board.

Techpowerup was in it's 'relative performance' section still including 1024x768 benchmarks within that... in 2008.


From the anandtech review 4870x2 shows poor scaling at low res, as did 280sli, because all the games were simply cpu limited, at 2560x1600, the top res around back then, through those games not only was 4870x2 performance epic compared to a single card it frequently completely destroyed 280 sli.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2584/2

The most relevant page on pricing. 4870x2 $549... slightly cheaper than 2x 4870s. It was also compared to 260 sli, which cost $600, a 280 which cost $450, and 280sli which cost $900. The $549 card was faster than 2x 4870 because at the time it came out 4870 was 512MB and 4870x2 was 1GB per core. It was $100 more than a single 280 which it utterly utterly destroyed a 280, lets see Crysis at max res, 280 has 22fps while a 4870x2 has 34fps. Some basic numbers on that it costs just over 20% more but provided in Crysis, THE benchmark for years, of over 50% more. Sounds like good value to me. Oh, it was also 5% faster but 40% cheaper than 280sli.


The 4870x2 was both a great value card and frequently provided better scaling and performance than two card solutions from both Nvidia and AMD at the time.

Your point doesn't stand at all, you cherry picked a card that still had awful performance for dollar at the time the pound was the strongest it has been against the dollar for the past 10 years.

I'm sure someone else can do the math but £375 at that time wouldn't be far off £500 today.

FYI the exchange rate today a £ gets you 1.43 dollars, back in 2008 it peaked at over 2 dollars.

As above, no it didn't have awful performance per dollar, it had epic performance per dollar, you cherry picked one of the worst review sites of the time that was using 1024x768 resolution to bring down the relative difference and somehow called the $549 priced 4870x2 badly priced when a single 280 was $450 and it cost less than two single 4870s at launch let alone later on as prices came down.

It was one of the best value cards ever made in graphics cards history, using a single cherry picked review that uses a ridiculously cpu limited resolution literally no one with more than a $150 card had used in years, is utterly insane.
 
Last edited:
Caporegime
Joined
23 Apr 2014
Posts
29,998
Location
Chadsville
You can argue the performance factor all you want I really don't care.

The fact is cards back then weren't much if at all cheaper than they are today.

Lets not pretend the 4 series wasn't plagued with crossfire issues either, having owned one I wouldn't have recommended it to anyone.
 
Last edited:
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
33,188
You can argue the performance factor all you want I really don't care.

The fact is cards back then weren't much if at all cheaper than they are today.

Lets not pretend the 4 series wasn't plagued with crossfire issues either, having owned one I wouldn't have recommended it to anyone.

You're arguing it had poor performance and didn't cost less... it was a $549 top of the line performance, dual gpu card that beat $900 competing solutions.

The cards were absolutely cheaper.... again, it was $549, you can't just completely ignore that because you want to. $549 for a dual gpu card is currently the price for a single high end gpu, to pretend they don't cost more now is silly.

Yeah, Nvidia were badly priced then and now... except back then Nvidia was only charging you $450 for the 280 and $300 for the second salvaged part off that card, it was a 500mm^2 + card. Today Nvidia is charging $650 for that, it is the salvaged part, and with the 680 they charged dramatically more than Nvidia ever has for the midrange parts masquerading as the high end part.

It would seem likely to me that Nvidia will once again try and price a 300mm^2 core at their usual 500mm^2 core pricing for 6-12 months before they release a 500mm^2+ consumer graphics part and drop the 300mm^2 core pricing to where it should be.
 
Caporegime
Joined
23 Apr 2014
Posts
29,998
Location
Chadsville
I've already explained above why it was so cheap back in 2008, if you do the math with dollar price and inflation it wouldn't seem so great. nVidia were badly priced, I've got no arguments against that.

Also some of the benchmarks you chose yourself were best case scenario, I can't even count the number of games I had with the 4870x2 where you barely got more than single card performance, and the black screening still makes me cringe.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom