**** The Official Prometheus Spoiler Discussion Thread ****

wedgie said:
Art has conventions yes, it's a bit of a stretch to call them rules though.

Don't you see the problem here, it's the reverse of being told by fans of a certain film that if you don't like it as well, then what it really means is you don't 'get it'.

It's insulting to be in the receiving end of either accusation.
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I call it rules, once you analyse art all those universal rules start to come out. Why everyone has innate sense of pentatonic scale for example, color theory, depth in painting, golden ratio ... and the same is true for good story telling and film direction. There are people who discover those rules and there are people who ignore them for no reason.

On another note I rather stay on the side of the analytical and reason, yes even when looking at a science fiction film, this film is impossible to get, because the narrative, the chaotic way in which information is presented and the overall plot make no sense whatsoever, not my opinion, fact.

This is not the licence to use metaphores or analogies in poetry, this is doing a mediocre job.
 
Finally saw it. It was alright.

I'd be happy to see "Shaw and a head in a bag see the universe"

The film essentially tells you how Alien (Scott's xeno NOT Camerons) works in terms of alien itself - and confirms the Scott thing from years ago about the ship being a weapon of war and the xenos being a bio weapon. Scott envisioned the alien as a creature with a short lifecycle, just living to reproduce quickly, then curling up and dying (as opposed to Cameron's more self-evolved big nastsy bugs) - see the scenes cut from Alien that are on the DVD etc.

It's not the same ship in Alien, but know more about the circumstances and mechanisms that would lead to the situation the Nostromo crew end up in.

Only real negs are it left so many questions about the Engineers and gives some avenues the Prometheus universe can go down, quite separate to alien. Also I hate the trope of aliens being super intelligent and building all this fantastic stuff, but a) all look the same b) always just swing their arms and be dumb and angry and personality-free.
 
hola_adios said:
I call it rules, once you analyse art all those universal rules start to come out. Why everyone has innate sense of pentatonic scale for example, color theory, depth in painting, golden ratio ... and the same is true for good story telling and film direction. There are people who discover those rules and there are people who ignore them for no reason.

On another note I rather stay on the side of the analytical and reason, yes even when looking at a science fiction film, this film is impossible to get, because the narrative, the chaotic way in which information is presented and the overall plot make no sense whatsoever, not my opinion, fact.

This is not the licence to use metaphores or analogies in poetry, this is doing a mediocre job.
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Fact?

Here, have another.....:rolleyes:

And I think RS has more ability at story telling and film direction in his little finger than you will ever have in your lifetime.
 
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hola_adios said:
On another note I rather stay on the side of the analytical and reason, yes even when looking at a science fiction film, this film is impossible to get, because the narrative, the chaotic way in which information is presented and the overall plot make no sense whatsoever, not my opinion, fact.
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But it is your opinion, how you can't see this beggars belief. You cannot factually say that a story is being told in a chaotic way, we're not talking about a maths problem where the solution is completely binary, it's right or it's wrong. Prometheus failed for you, it failed for me, that doesn't mean it's then impossible for it to be exactly what someone else wanted.

I'll leave it here because I don't think you're going to see how dumb it is to presume you can tell someone how much they enjoyed something. It's ridiculous, as is trying to say well you didn't really enjoy it, or you have no taste, or you're overlooking the many flaws purely for the sake of it. And in any case, I agree with you, I just don't take the next step and try to turn my opinion into fact :p.

What's your favourite film btw (or one of them), because I bet we can find someone who hates it just as much as you love it, and can give very good reasons why they hate it ;).
 
wedgie said:
But it is your opinion, how you can't see this beggars belief. You cannot factually say that a story is being told in a chaotic way, we're not talking about a maths problem where the solution is completely binary, it's right or it's wrong. Prometheus failed for you, it failed for me, that doesn't mean it's then impossible for it to be exactly what someone else wanted.

I'll leave it here because I don't think you're going to see how dumb it is to presume you can tell someone how much they enjoyed something. It's ridiculous, as is trying to say well you didn't really enjoy it, or you have no taste, or you're overlooking the many flaws purely for the sake of it. And in any case, I agree with you, I just don't take the next step and try to turn my opinion into fact :p.

What's your favourite film btw (or one of them), because I bet we can find someone who hates it just as much as you love it, and can give very good reasons why they hate it ;).
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I am not saying anyone what they can or cannot enjoy, far from. If you see someone enjoying big brother you will not question that they enjoy, you question your taste.

And again, there are very clear rules for good story telling, and lots of books written about it, so yes, there are ways to tell if a story is well planned or not ... saying the opposite is denying thousands of years of story telling. And that is fact, not my opinion.
 
hola_adios said:
So, let's agree to disagree, I have the same right at thinking this film is a poor one than any of you have at thinking it is good.
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Yes you do, but you absolutely NO right to say that somebody has poor taste and is unable to differentiate between good and bad just because their opinion is different to yours.

Bash Prometheus and the people who made it all you like - I have no problem with that: it is your opinion and you have a right to voice it, even if you do begin to make a fool of yourself in trying to lecture us on the undeniable facts that make Prometheus a bad movie, or the rules of what determines a piece of art as "good" or "bad", as if we need educating. Are you going to describe what mise-en-scène is for us next? What I do have a problem with, and what you do deserve the berating you've since gotten for, is directly insulting a persons ability to think for themselves just because they don't share the same opinion as you. I have no idea why you'd dislike a film so much that you think its advocates deserve criticism themselves.
 
hola_adios said:
I am not saying anyone what they can or cannot enjoy, far from. If you see someone enjoying big brother you will not question that they enjoy, you question your taste.

And again, there are very clear rules for good story telling, and lots of books written about it, so yes, there are ways to tell if a story is well planned or not ... saying the opposite is denying thousands of years of story telling. And that is fact, not my opinion.
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I'm not denying it, I'm saying that just because something doesn't adhere strictly to your 'rules' does not make it bad. Just the same as you can have a bad film even if it managed to abide every rule in the book.

And that's why they're conventions, not rules, and why it's always a matter of opinion, not fact.

Everytime you proclaim your points as fact, it makes me wonder if you actually know the meaning of the word? :confused:

Here's a fact -

1 + 1 = 2

If anyone has a reasoned argument why that's not a fact, I'm all ears.

I suspect there will be nobody that comes along to dispute the above as fact, but you have many people trying to tell you what you're saying is nonsense, yet that's also a fact?
 
Somnambulist said:
Finally saw it. It was alright.

I'd be happy to see "Shaw and a head in a bag see the universe"

The film essentially tells you how Alien (Scott's xeno NOT Camerons) works in terms of alien itself - and confirms the Scott thing from years ago about the ship being a weapon of war and the xenos being a bio weapon. Scott envisioned the alien as a creature with a short lifecycle, just living to reproduce quickly, then curling up and dying (as opposed to Cameron's more self-evolved big nastsy bugs) - see the scenes cut from Alien that are on the DVD etc.

It's not the same ship in Alien, but know more about the circumstances and mechanisms that would lead to the situation the Nostromo crew end up in.

Only real negs are it left so many questions about the Engineers and gives some avenues the Prometheus universe can go down, quite separate to alien. Also I hate the trope of aliens being super intelligent and building all this fantastic stuff, but a) all look the same b) always just swing their arms and be dumb and angry and personality-free.
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i agree especially the last part. are these engineers the grunts on the front line like a US marine is a front man of the human race? yes we have scientists but if your in a foreign land you will surely meet a marine jar head before Einstein for example.

i just don't see this grunt guy in a lab creating this that or the other or crafting something to build these gigantic spaceships the have. something like that requires a huge industry behind it for the design and products.

i just don't see a race of 'must smash heads' bruisers being able to create the background necessary to create the situation we see in prometheus.
 
wedgie said:
Here's a fact -

1 + 1 = 2

If anyone has a reasoned argument why that's not a fact, I'm all ears.

I suspect there will be nobody that comes along to dispute the above as fact, but you have many people trying to tell you what you're saying is nonsense, yet that's also a fact?
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You are wrong!

1 + 1 = a window! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA *silent wind blows*

Seriously though, as many of the flaws and disappointments that were in this film, I still enjoyed it for the amount of speculating and more questions that it gives. I guess that means I have bad taste then. Well boohoo, as if I could care.
 
wedgie said:
I'm not denying it, I'm saying that just because something doesn't adhere strictly to your 'rules' does not make it bad. Just the same as you can have a bad film even if it managed to abide every rule in the book.

And that's why they're conventions, not rules, and why it's always a matter of opinion, not fact.

Everytime you proclaim your points as fact, it makes me wonder if you actually know the meaning of the word? :confused:

Here's a fact -

1 + 1 = 2

If anyone has a reasoned argument why that's not a fact, I'm all ears.

I suspect there will be nobody that comes along to dispute the above as fact, but you have many people trying to tell you what you're saying is nonsense, yet that's also a fact?
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OK, the fact is that human brain is hard-wire in certain way, so there are ways to trick it, appease it and making it go places without the concious aspect of it being able to do much about it, and yes that is a fact. That is the first rule to be a good writer/director/composer, aside from mastering a series of complex rules, is to know of those facts.

All the art that humans have created are based on perception, and the way we perceive is well quantified and understood, if you think that the process of making something that most people will like or find attractive is all down to subjective acts, well think again, sociology and marketing sciences have make a real science of it.

The fact that people do not know about it or do not understand it, doesn't make it less of a fact.
 
hola_adios said:
OK, the fact is that human brain is hard-wire in certain way, so there are ways to trick it, appease it and making it go places without the concious aspect of it being able to do much about it, and yes that is a fact. That is the first rule to be a good writer/director/composer, aside from mastering a series of complex rules, is to know of those facts.

All the art that humans have created are based on perception, and the way we perceive is well quantified and understood, if you think that the process of making something that most people will like or find attractive is all down to subjective acts, well think again, sociology and marketing sciences have make a real science of it.

The fact that people do not know about it or do not understand it, doesn't make it less of a fact.
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If that were the case, then everybody would like the same things.

You're talking ****.
 
hola_adios said:
All the art that humans have created are based on perception, and the way we perceive is well quantified and understood, if you think that the process of making something that most people will like or find attractive is all down to subjective acts, well think again, sociology and marketing sciences have make a real science of it.

The fact that people do not know about it or do not understand it, doesn't make it less of a fact.
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Don't you think it's strange then, on any piece from any form of art or entertainment, opinions will differ wildy? If these rules are set in stone, why isn't every film a 10/10 to every person? If the rules are so fundamental, it should be a very rare occurance to find opposing views on a film. It's not rare, it's actually impossible to find a single film where every single person holds the same opinion.

To your point about making something that most people will like or find attractive, yes this does happen, but it surely cannot be the basis of your argument here. Here's why -

hola_adios said:
It is poor story telling, I would recommend to watch good films, and then come back and compare with with what RS has done here, which is just allow a mediocre and incoherent film to be released. The plot holes I could leave with, but not the total lack of coherence or poor character development. May be good enough if your film list is topped by transformers or star wars though.
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That's right, you used Transformers as a film that someone with poor taste would probably like. So let me get this straight, there's a science and a set of rules behind making a good (and by good it appears you mean appeal to the widest audience) film, but when a movie like Transformers is made for no purpose other than to appeal to the widest audience (and achieves this aim easily) the end result is still a bad film? Do you see how easily your rules are broken? It's because they're not rules, it's the view of someone incapable of seeing things from anyone's perspective other than his own.

You're talking rubbish, not one of your facts has actually been a fact, not one.

Don't you think it's possible that maybe, just maybe, Prometheus didn't have the right combination of ingredients to push your button, but at the same time it offered exactly what the next person was looking for?
 
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Not everyone is capable of bringing all the traits/rules/tricks together, and visualise how they would look and flow, same as not everyone can understand relativity ... but the fact you cannot understand or grasp it, doesn't mean is not there, and that some people can. Those gifted directors who know what people like, and how to portrait, you think they just make magic?

Do you actually know how to proof from first principles anything, mathematics wise? Or in physics? There is no difference for human taste, it is just more complex, you cannot see it, well, it is not my fault, you just cannot, or haven't taken the time to study it.

I did not know how to draw, but I took an interest on it, many years ago, and after studying a bit, I got decent(ish) at it. There are human being who have a better natural predisposition for it, who are "naturals", I imagine they have been blessed by the gods if we have to follow the reasoning that some of you are throwing ...
 
I'd be interested to know what hola_adios thinks of the following films:

Pitch Black
Contact
Stargate
Event Horizon
Avatar
Serenity
Tron Legacy
2001 Space Odyssey
Mission To Mars
Moon
The Arrival
The Fifth Element
District 9

Is Prometheus worse than all of these?
 
hola_adios said:
Not everyone is capable of bringing all the traits/rules/tricks together, and visualise how they would look and flow, same as not everyone can understand relativity ... but the fact you cannot understand or grasp it, doesn't mean is not there, and that some people can. Those gifted directors who know what people like, and how to portrait, you think they just make magic?
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Do you think they make magic with every film? Ridley Scott made Alien, a great film. He made Prometheus, a not great film. How can this be if he's already displayed many years ago (and a few times since) that he is very adept at filmmaking? Who makes films that are widely recognised as being great every single time? Nobody. But surely once you know the formula, that's it, easy going from there on in?
hola_adios said:
Do you actually know how to proof from first principles anything, mathematics wise? Or in physics? There is no difference for human taste, it is just more complex, you cannot see it, well, it is not my fault, you just cannot, or haven't taken the time to study it.
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You're right, clearly it must be everyone else that is guilty of ignorance here.

Someone else can have a go, it's like trying to explain something to a 5 year old.
 
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