***The Official Ray Tracing Thread - Read the First Post before posting***

[Nexus18]

So why can't you accept their opinion?

I could sell my 7900 XT tomorrow and easily get £600 and in one week put money down for an RTX 4080, but to me it's not worth it, the visual changes are mediocre at best.

I'm not sure what else will get through to you and MrK's heads.

It's not like I have not experienced Nvidia's suite my friend, the 3070 did a decent job of RT for what it was, it's just meh.

Where abouts am I not accepting their opinion? I'm simply stating the fact that this is a similar argument to the people who bang on that 30 fps is perfectly "acceptable", great for them, no chance I am ever going back to 30 fps gaming.

Essentially my take/point is, it's pointless to try and justify why we don't need RT, it doesn't matter if you are or aren't a fan of RT, the industry of game development does not care, they have decided what they want to use going forward and rt is that because of how it allows them to do more and do it quicker with less effort.

 

[Stanners]

Polite reminder to everyone, please read the fisrt post in this thread.

Keep things civil

 

[mrk]

the visual changes are mediocre at best.

Why do (some) people keep saying things like this when time after time we see example after example showing that this sort of statement isn't true at all unless you cherry pick only scenes of any given game where there is not a big difference and ignore all of the other areas where RT makes a big difference (aka, anything with good shadows/reflections and the use of dynamic GI but this really comes down to the type of game in question so GI shouldn't really be a talking point as not all games are 3D open world).

RT is transformative, we know this as we have proof in this thread and everywhere, yet some choose to keep ignoring this fact

Why do you keep choosing to ignore documented facts?

Edit* I see things have been deleted, so can't see what those posts were. I opened this tab and went to make a tea mid-reply so am commenting mid-discussion.

 

[Nexus18]

Why do (some) people keep saying things like this when time after time we see example after example showing that this sort of statement isn't true at all unless you cherry pick only scenes of any given game where there is not a big difference and ignore all of the other areas where RT makes a big difference (aka, anything with good shadows/reflections and the use of dynamic GI but this really comes down to the type of game in question so GI shouldn't really be a talking point as not all games are 3D open world).

RT is transformative, we know this as we have proof in this thread and everywhere, yet some choose to keep ignoring this fact

Why do you keep choosing to ignore documented facts?

Yup I really don't get it, like if you simply don't care or don't think it's worth the performance hit, that is a completely different and valid argument but to say it's makes little to no worthwhile difference is just plain wrong (unless of course you cherry pick the scenes where RT most likely isn't even being applied/used like we had someone do with doom to showcase no reflections on a piece of wood )

 

[humbug]

Yup I really don't get it, like if you simply don't care or don't think it's worth the performance hit, that is a completely different and valid argument but to say it's makes little to no worthwhile difference is just plain wrong (unless of course you cherry pick the scenes where RT most likely isn't even being applied/used like we had someone do with doom to showcase no reflections on a piece of wood )

Yup I really don't get it, like if you simply don't care or don't think it's worth the performance hit, that is a completely different and valid argument but to say it's makes little to no worthwhile difference is just plain wrong

Its the same thing, to say its too much of a performance hit and its not a worthwhile difference is the same thing.

 

[Nexus18]

Its the same thing, to say its too much of a performance hit and its not a worthwhile difference is the same thing.

In terms of opinion and it not making a "worthwhile" difference to the said user, that's valid but to say it makes "little to no difference" is just a false statement as evidenced by countless side by side comparisons (which aren't cherry picked of scenes where there is little to no RT being applied in the first place.....)

i.e. lets use first descandant which some are saying is the worse implementation to date, well when you're looking at the areas of where RT is primarily being used i.e. shadows, it is making a substantial difference to the scene:

Raster looks like a childrens popup book in comparison.

Also, in motion, that SSR box/halo'ing would drive me mad in gameplay:

And now this is where I would say when looking at this scene for example, that there is too little of a difference especially if needing extra performance:

 

[mrk]

Above all that, with RT off in that game reflections and shadows are broken, also it seems upscaling is bugged, FSR has its usual shimmering on distance lines and flickering on objects in the far distance, whilst DLSS has edge garbling and pronounced software Lumen artefacting. The only clean method of rendering in Descendant is either FSR NativeAA with Frame gen, or DLAA with Frame Gen, both of which enable Reflex by default so input latency is minimal. RT also has to be set to Ultra because in any other RT mode it's once again broken.

I did a video on this, forgot to publish but here we go:

 

[Nexus18]

Above all that, with RT off in that game reflections and shadows are broken, also it seems upscaling is bugged, FSR has its usual shimmering on distance lines and flickering on objects in the far distance, whilst DLSS has edge garbling and pronounced software Lumen artefacting. The only clean method of rendering in Descendant is either FSR NativeAA with Frame gen, or DLAA with Frame Gen, both of which enable Reflex by default so input latency is minimal. RT also has to be set to Ultra because in any other RT mode it's once again broken.

I did a video on this, forgot to publish but here we go:

Not got myself so can't comment but are you sure it's not down to devs simply just not bothering with raster effects as this has happened in other games where reflections are all but basically just not there with raster.

 

[mrk]

Could well be, but it doesn't explain the grabling when upscaling is enabled even at Quality mode which is most obvious using DLSS but not with FSR Quality (though there is shimmering/flickering with FSR Quality). Either way, the GFX is bugged, especially given that enabling ray reconstruction loses about 10fps which is the opposite of what should be happening lol.

 

[humbug]

In terms of opinion and it not making a "worthwhile" difference to the said user, that's valid but to say it makes "little to no difference" is just a false statement as evidenced by countless side by side comparisons (which aren't cherry picked of scenes where there is little to no RT being applied in the first place.....)

i.e. lets use first descandant which some are saying is the worse implementation to date, well when you're looking at the areas of where RT is primarily being used i.e. shadows, it is making a substantial difference to the scene:

Raster looks like a childrens popup book in comparison.

Also, in motion, that SSR box/halo'ing would drive me mad in gameplay:

And now this is where I would say when looking at this scene for example, that there is too little of a difference especially if needing extra performance:

RT does make a difference, no question about that in my mind. But "worthwhile difference" which is what you said is not a denial of that, its simply stating that this difference is not worth it, it being the performance hit, the latter is just an expansion of the reasoning to the former.
------------

Anyway, I ran it DX12 this time, somewhat higher score, again nothing special about how i ran it, just normal, not worth trying to squeeze more points out of it for this.

Ultra: 1991.

https://powerboard4.basemark.com/benchmark-result/40120

 

[humbug]

Your own graphs show that at 1440P you need a 4070 Super just to average 60 FPS, you probably need a 4080 just to maintain 60 FPS at 1440P, even that can only manage 70 Average.

Its also a fast paced shooter.

I would think for 99% of the people who play this 'its not worth it' 90% can't even do it.

Not an unreasonable opinion to have.

 

[humbug]

Above all that, with RT off in that game reflections and shadows are broken, also it seems upscaling is bugged, FSR has its usual shimmering on distance lines and flickering on objects in the far distance, whilst DLSS has edge garbling and pronounced software Lumen artefacting. The only clean method of rendering in Descendant is either FSR NativeAA with Frame gen, or DLAA with Frame Gen, both of which enable Reflex by default so input latency is minimal. RT also has to be set to Ultra because in any other RT mode it's once again broken.

I did a video on this, forgot to publish but here we go:

I'd love to get this opend up in the UE editor to see what exactly they have done to this, its very easy to make a mess of it....

 

[mrk]

Given it's a free game, there's not much room to complain I guess, but yeah would be nice to see a dissection of sorts.

 

[Nexus18]

Your own graphs show that at 1440P you need a 4070 Super just to average 60 FPS, you probably need a 4080 just to maintain 60 FPS at 1440P, even that can only manage 70 Average.

Its also a fast paced shooter.

I would think for 99% of the people who play this 'its not worth it' 90% can't even do it.

Not an unreasonable opinion to have.

That's without upscaling nor frame gen, we all know, if you're using RT on any gpu, you're going to be using upscaling at the very least. So far no sites have done reviews on dlss, fsr vs native taa but like other games, I won't be surprised to see them have better overall iq compared to native especially since most of the sites have stated the TAA in this game is very bad and there is no option to disable it.

 

[mrk]

if you're using RT on any gpu, you're going to be using upscaling at the very least.

Not in Descendant DLAA/FSR NativeAA + Frame Gen is the only way with RT set to Ultra, all other settings/modes are going to give broken shadows/reflections/shimmering/garbling or artefacts

 

[Nexus18]

Not in Descendant DLAA/FSR NativeAA + Frame Gen is the only way with RT set to Ultra, all other settings/modes are going to give broken shadows/reflections/shimmering/garbling or artefacts

I'm downloading now to give a shot.

I read somewhere apparently this is actually using hardware lumen on the max setting? And then falls back to software but this is what is bugged apparently?

 

[mrk]

I fit's using HW Lumen then it's completely bugged yeah. The visual RT denoiser artefacting indicates software Lumen is in effect not Hardware, and the fact that Ray Reconstruction reduces fps whilst not actually doing much else bolsters this notion!

 

[JediFragger]

Damn no thanks, I'd rather take that extra 33fps @Nexus18 considering I know it's quite a fast-paced game and I won't be stood there looking around....at all!!

 

[humbug]

Given it's a free game, there's not much room to complain I guess, but yeah would be nice to see a dissection of sorts.

Right... its fine, have some fun with it, it cost you nothing.

 

[Nexus18]

Damn no thanks, I'd rather take that extra 33fps @Nexus18 considering I know it's quite a fast-paced game and I won't be stood there looking around....at all!!

I had a quick go there. Performance with dlss quality and balanced maxed out at 3440x1440 is pretty good (also dlss performance has very little IQ hit too), 60-70 fps and feels smooth. Tried without RT and as expected, the awful ssr artifacts around objects/your body when in water is just immersion breaking but as the saying goes, each to their own and all that.

Not really my game though so won't be spending a huge amount of time on it.