The Rangers Saga and Fallout Thread

[McRod]

About the same that Rangers fans had when Partick Thistle were in trouble and were only saved by the "Save the Jags" campaign, or any other club that has been in trouble in recent years. "Scotland has too many football clubs", "don't spend outwith your means" seemed to be favourite quotes at the time.

Who were those quotes assigned to? Can you find their source? I`ll guarantee the latter wouldn`t have been uttered by and Rangers fan i know. The former is a valid point however.

There is a difference in that Rangers, through their fans, have the ability to help you in the event of playing at your ground. Any chairman will tell you that when a cup tie is drawn at their home, they want (or need) Rangers.

We will full your ground, eat your pies and drink your Bovril.

If, on the other hand, your chairman or anyone else in a senior position in your club shouts from the rooftops that Rangers should be kicked almost to death, then we simply won`t come.

It`s probably worth mentioning again that we, the fans, feel like the victims in this scenario. We have paid for our season tickets, we have paid for merchandise, we have given millions of pounds every season to every other SPL club through attending matches etc. The money is no longer in our pockets. It is given to the club which in turn has thrown in to the abyss.

We have no control at boardroom level. We cannot make decisions. We entrust this to the owners and a board. If they fail, it is through no fault of the foot soldier fans, however we will repay these debts given the chance.

What we won`t forgive or forget is the people or organisations who wish to kick us while we`re down.

This is how we feel.

 

[Swordfish]

When Dundee Utd go in to administration, who will you blame? Will you blame Rangers for boycotting Tannadice or will you blame the Thompson`s for spending money they couldn`t afford? Your owners took you to brink last year when the sale of Goodwille spared you from administration.

By your logic, Thompson should also be charged by running his club at a loss?. Whats UTD`s debt currently standing at? Do you think it is servicable? Should the SFA investigate your ability to service the debt? I know your bank is still very concerned.

The fact of the matter is that our debt was servicable (18m) when Craig White took over.

The Rangers fans are united in the fact that we want to repay all debts but we currently cannot. We have no vehcile in which to do so. If we were to achieve a CVA then every penny would be paid back, such is the loyalty of the Rangers fans.

The fans paid a few clubs and a few debtors with some money they were able to raise but we are intent on repaying all moneys and taxes due to everyone involved on behalf of the charlatans who were unable to.

We have done this for 140 years and will continue to do so given the opportunity once the cavemen stop stabbing the mammoth and let it back on it`s feet.

We need the punishment to be fair and enable Rangers to emerge from this as quickly as possible.

If it has to be a newco, then the 3rd division would suit us perfectly. it would also allow the other SPL clubs to sample a few years without our travelling support and TV revenue to see just how good or bad the SPL would be without us.

Everyone wins.....apart from the clubs who`s directors have based their entire budget on Rangers fans visiting twice sometimes 3 times a season (£500k to £750k) and the relative TV revenue. The debt these clubs are currently in means their mere existance depends on Rangers being in the SPL next season.

If, and more likely when, administration comes to your club, how much sympathy do you think the Rangers fans will have if you were one of the cavemen throwing the spears?.

If Dundee United go into administration then the fault will lie the the Board of Directors. I for one will take any punishment handed out.

AFAIK Dundee United's debt is around £5-6 Million and appears to be serviceable at the moment. We survive by being a selling club.

As for sympathy from Rangers fans I could not care less.

A CVA does not guarantee full payment of debts only an agreement to pay part or all.

The main thing is that Rangers Supporters and Management believe that everything should be done to save Rangers simply because they are Rangers.

 

[McRod]

If Dundee United go into administration then the fault will lie the the Board of Directors. I for one will take any punishment handed out.

It will be intersting to see exactly what kind of punishment you`ll receive. A transfer embargo on you (as a selling club) would finish you as a club. Liquidation would be the only resort. Would you be happy with that? Sit meekly on your hands and accept it? My arse you would.

AFAIK Dundee United's debt is around £5-6 Million and appears to be serviceable at the moment. We survive by being a selling club.

You`d better hope Mackay Steven keeps improving because without the prospect of punting him, there`s no way you`ll pull that debt back even with Rangers and TV revenue.[/QUOTE]

As for sympathy from Rangers fans I could not care less.

The feeling is mutual.

A CVA does not guarantee full payment of debts only an agreement to pay part or all.

Fully understand. A CVA is the only way to repay debt. Some is better than none. Every business globally abides by this law, Rangers are no different.....unless you think a CVA is unfair?

The main thing is that Rangers Supporters and Management believe that everything should be done to save Rangers simply because they are Rangers.

No we don`t. We beleive that for the good of the debtors and the good of Scottish football that we should receive something we can work together on. We need to get to a CVA swiftly to allow us to start addressing the debt.

We do not want liquidation as it would mean no pence in the pound for our creditors.

We want to be able to come to your ground, blow fortunes on tickets, eat your pies and spend money in your local pubs etc. This means you prosper and don`t have to worry about liquidation in the short term. (although i can`t see any way back from £7m in the short term)

We will accept an appropriate punishment as it is the rules but any icing on it and we shall exercise our presbyterain heritage and ...well....protest!.

 

[semi-pro waster]

Instead of looking for ways to handicap and punish, the SFA should be looking at ways of helping member clubs, all clubs, not just Rangers. Every club should also take note of how easily 1 individual can destroy their club. Hearts fans take note.

Every other club with the exception of 1, should be able to put tribalism aside temporarily and see the wood for the trees in this situation.

As a Hearts fan I'm all too well aware of the predicament that we're in by having Romanov as chairman. I've got a certain amount of sympathy for fans in such situations but I think that sometimes it's just a risk you take when you support a football club - you might get taken over by someone who is going to ruin you, whether intentionally or not.

It's hard to be objective when it is the club that one supports but it would set a bad precedent if there were not suitable sanctions imposed for such financial transgressions. There's also questions to be answered about what value the "fit and proper" person test has given it sounds as if Mr Whyte shouldn't be left minding a cakestand at church fete but that's another matter perhaps.

I repeat, Rangers are Scottish Football. Thats not being arrogant, it is merely stating facts.

If we weren`t , we`d have disappeared without a whimper like Gretna etc.

The entire institution of Rangers FC is the life blood of Scottish football and it is why the other teams desperately need us to stay afloat.

They need our fans through their gates and they need our brand for TV money.

This is plain and simple facts.

No, it is being arrogant. Rangers may be an important part of Scottish football at the moment and they along with Celtic constitute the main attractions in Scottish football with the largest fanbases but I think you're investing the club with an importance that it simply doesn't have.

Scottish football will not die if Rangers were to bounced out of the SPL or indeed out of existence. It would have to adapt certainly and would almost definitely be diminished for a period but what comes after that is up for debate - I can see it being unpleasant for a while and more clubs struggling but Scottish football itself wouldn't die.

 

[afraser2k]

Who were those quotes assigned to? Can you find their source? I`ll guarantee the latter wouldn`t have been uttered by and Rangers fan i know. The former is a valid point however.

There is a difference in that Rangers, through their fans, have the ability to help you in the event of playing at your ground. Any chairman will tell you that when a cup tie is drawn at their home, they want (or need) Rangers.

We will full your ground, eat your pies and drink your Bovril. We will sing The Sash in a carnival atmosphere and have a general good time all round.

If, on the other hand, your chairman or anyone else in a senior position in your club shouts from the rooftops that Rangers should be kicked almost to death, then we simply won`t come.

It`s probably worth mentioning again that we, the fans, feel like the victims in this scenario. We have paid for our season tickets, we have paid for merchandise, we have given millions of pounds every season to every other SPL club through attending matches etc. The money is no longer in our pockets. It is given to the club which in turn has thrown in to the abyss.

We have no control at boardroom level. We cannot make decisions. We entrust this to the owners and a board. If they fail, it is through no fault of the foot soldier fans, however we will repay these debts given the chance.

What we won`t forgive or forget is the people or organisations who wish to kick us while we`re down.

This is how we feel.

We've managed to survive for years without visits of the Old Firm and doubt that'll change despite the problems we've had with developing outside our ground. We'll still survive if Rangers are relegated or are no more, though I still think they'll be in the SPL in some form or a restructured league. I hope Rangers fans do go ahead with their boycotts just to see the state of panic in the rest of the SPL if it reforms the league.

Rangers fans are victims, victims at the hands of the people that ran the club over the years from Sir David Murray to Craig Whyte, not the rest of Scottish football that seems to be their latest target for boycotts etc. The club is being punished for the actions of these people within the rules of the game and shouldn't be a special case just because of their financial draw to the rest of the league. Rangers fans need to ask their "legends" or ex-board members exactly what they knew was going on during their time at the club.

As I said previously, expulsion from SFA memebership was the likely outcome out of all of this but the panel agreed it would kill the club and decided on a lesser punishment within the rules that Rangers are signed up to.

 

[Jokester]

In simple terms, Rangers are Scottish Football.

And you wonder why fans of other teams have no sympathy for you?

 

[McRod]

We've managed to survive for years without visits of the Old Firm and doubt that'll change despite the problems we've had with developing outside our ground. We'll still survive if Rangers are relegated or are no more, though I still think they'll be in the SPL in some form or a restructured league. I hope Rangers fans do go ahead with their boycotts just to see the state of panic in the rest of the SPL if it reforms the league.

I was referring more to the SPL clubs who`s chairmen have put them in to millions of pounds worth of debt.

If there was no debt, they would all survive on a much smaller budget but for now, they need the money from Rangers and TV to begin to adress their money problems, which hopefulyl in time will be less dependent on those 2 factors.

Rangers fans are victims, victims at the hands of the people that ran the club over the years from Sir David Murray to Craig Whyte, not the rest of Scottish football that seems to be their latest target for boycotts etc. The club is being punished for the actions of these people within the rules of the game and shouldn't be a special case just because of their financial draw to the rest of the league. Rangers fans need to ask their "legends" or ex-board members exactly what they knew was going on during their time at the club.

In a horrible sort of way every decent fan of any club who pays up front for merchandise and season tickets are the victims. Hearts, Dundee Utd, Kilmarnock fans all pay their hard earned cash and they are being failed by over ambitious or simply ego maniacal chairmen or owner over which they have absolutely NO control. These fans are the victims yet no one seems to give a flying **** about them.

As I said previously, expulsion from SFA memebership was the likely outcome out of all of this but the panel agreed it would kill the club and decided on a lesser punishment within the rules that Rangers are signed up to.

The transfer embargo lifted would satify us. We`re happy to pay the fines and happy to begin to pay back the people who we owe money to.

 

[McRod]

And you wonder why fans of other teams have no sympathy for you?

Sympathy is not something we want or expect from other fans. The actions of other fans with regards to the plight of my team are irrelevent. It is the SFA, our governing body who needs to realise that by unfairly punishing Rangers, many other clubs get hit by the shrapnel.

Prove me wrong that we are not the life and soul of Scottish Football and it`s entire history.

Give me some sort of evidence to the contrary or perhaps tell me how Dundee Utd, Kilmarnock and Hearts are going to service serious debt without Rangers.

I understand it is unpalatable, but everyone knows without us there is a doomsday scenario for many long standing clubs.

Incidently "Rangers is Scottish Football" isn`t something to be proud of when you consider what Scottish football currently is but it is hard to argue otherwise when you think of the outcome if we cease to exist.

 

[jamesy505]

If all Rangers fans think and act like McRod does, then that will answer why no-one has sympathy for you.

It is clear that Celtic and Rangers are the main attraction in Scottish Football, not only Rangers. What some Rangers fans fail to grasp is that the transfer embargo and fine are not for going into administration, like Gretna or Motherwell before them.

It is for systematically using money due to the tax man to fund their club since May last year and failure to pay member clubs monies due. And the arguement that it is all one person is a rubbish one...Whyte was in charge but he clearly wasnt the only one who knew of the non payment of PAYE etc..

Rangers have been fairly punished for what they have been found guilty for. It doesnt help that the administrators are useless and are now pandering to the angry fans with erroneous statements.

This is still only the tip of the iceberg, IF the SPL investigation prove the dual contract allegations, never mind the big tax case.

But it isnt Rangers fault

 

[Jokester]

Indeed, it's quit sad that all they can do is blame everyone else for their self inflicted ills.

 

[afraser2k]

I know he's not liked by many Rangers fans, but Alex Thomson has posted a good blog entry on all of this here.

 

[spudbynight]

Just how much punishment should the club face? We have already been docked 10 points and been deprived of revenue from European Football. As unpalatable as it is, we are then further hit with financial penalties and then banned from signing players for 12 months.

There are penalties for going into administration. These include the 10 point penalty and the ban from European football. These are standard affairs and apply to any club going into administration.

The thing is Rangers are also guilty of a number of other offences. For a start they have registered players illegally and they are also accused of avoiding tax. Punishment for these separate offences must be in addition to the separate punishment for going into administration.

What many Rangers fans seem to be ignoring is that they are not just guilty of "running out of money", they are also guilty of cheating.

 

[spudbynight]

Scottish football will not die if Rangers were to bounced out of the SPL or indeed out of existence. It would have to adapt certainly and would almost definitely be diminished for a period but what comes after that is up for debate - I can see it being unpleasant for a while and more clubs struggling but Scottish football itself wouldn't die.

I personally feel that the exit of Rangers - even temporarily - from the SPL would be good for Scottish football.

It would calm down some of the Celtic-Rangers sectarianism. It would spread money more evenly and result in a more competitive league.

I remember watching Scottish football back in the 80s. In those days any side could win the league - it was likely to be Celtic or Rangers but the others had a chance. Aberdeen won the Cup Winners Cup in 1983. I couldn't see any Scottish side win a European trophy at the moment - never mind a non "old firm" side.

 

[spudbynight]

The transfer embargo lifted would satify us. We`re happy to pay the fines and happy to begin to pay back the people who we owe money to.

What punishment do you think Rangers should receive for illegally registering players and for illegally avoiding tax then? Or, do you think they should not be punished for these offences?

 

[semi-pro waster]

Prove me wrong that we are not the life and soul of Scottish Football and it`s entire history.

The fact (and that's fact used in a correct context) that there are eleven other clubs in the SPL and a further thirty in divisions 1-3 tells you, or should, that there's a lot more to Scottish football than Rangers.

If you want to make the argument that both Rangers and Celtic are the biggest clubs in the SPL or that between them they've won the majority of the trophies then that's a different argument but to say they're the entire history of Scottish football is a conceit that borders on the ridiculous.

Give me some sort of evidence to the contrary or perhaps tell me how Dundee Utd, Kilmarnock and Hearts are going to service serious debt without Rangers.

Maybe they will survive and maybe they won't but in each case it's a situation that the club got themselves into irrespective of Rangers and the supporters of each club will have to face up to their debt.

I understand it is unpalatable, but everyone knows without us there is a doomsday scenario for many long standing clubs.

Incidently "Rangers is Scottish Football" isn`t something to be proud of when you consider what Scottish football currently is but it is hard to argue otherwise when you think of the outcome if we cease to exist.

It's not hard to argue otherwise, Rangers are important because of sheer size but then so are Celtic. Neither of them are the absolute be all and end all for Scottish football - if they were both to disappear then Scottish football would adapt, it might be lessened in the eyes of the World but then again with both Celtic and Rangers it's hardly viewed as a shining example of footballing excellence so the loss of status is somewhat moot. Maybe it is what is needed to create a healthier state of Scottish football in the longer term.

I personally feel that the exit of Rangers - even temporarily - from the SPL would be good for Scottish football.

It would calm down some of the Celtic-Rangers sectarianism. It would spread money more evenly and result in a more competitive league.

I remember watching Scottish football back in the 80s. In those days any side could win the league - it was likely to be Celtic or Rangers but the others had a chance. Aberdeen won the Cup Winners Cup in 1983. I couldn't see any Scottish side win a European trophy at the moment - never mind a non "old firm" side.

I don't know if I'd go as far as to say that it would definitely be good but I'm certainly not all that worried about it should it occur. I think some clubs might struggle (and Hearts could well be in that number) but as you say it might be needed to get a more balanced league.

I'd say the 80s were somewhat of an aberration in Scottish football given that for a couple of decades before and after it's been close to exclusively the preserve of the Old Firm but I take the point that it's become less and less likely to be any team outside those two winning the league (Hearts and Aberdeen coming close a couple of time excepted).

 

[McRod]

If all Rangers fans think and act like McRod does, then that will answer why no-one has sympathy for you.

It is clear that Celtic and Rangers are the main attraction in Scottish Football, not only Rangers. What some Rangers fans fail to grasp is that the transfer embargo and fine are not for going into administration, like Gretna or Motherwell before them.

It is for systematically using money due to the tax man to fund their club since May last year and failure to pay member clubs monies due. And the arguement that it is all one person is a rubbish one...Whyte was in charge but he clearly wasnt the only one who knew of the non payment of PAYE etc..

Rangers have been fairly punished for what they have been found guilty for. It doesnt help that the administrators are useless and are now pandering to the angry fans with erroneous statements.

This is still only the tip of the iceberg, IF the SPL investigation prove the dual contract allegations, never mind the big tax case.

But it isnt Rangers fault

I haven`t met a celtic fan yet with any worthwhile or valuable input in to this situation.

My search continues.

 

[McRod]

What punishment do you think Rangers should receive for illegally registering players and for illegally avoiding tax then? Or, do you think they should not be punished for these offences?

You need some education on the legalities regarding tax evasion and tax avoidance.

It is not illegal being unable to pay tax if it can be shown or proven that there is simply no means to pay it.

If you don`t have the means to pay, you are made bankrupt, or in the case of a company or business, you go in to administration, receivership or liquidation.

If you cannot pay it, you are served a notice with a specific amount of time to pay. If you cannot, the HMRC issue a winding up order.

In this recession, many many companies are running 1 or even 2 VAT or Tax "quarters" behind. This is not illegal but it incures penalty charges. If a company thinks they can trade through these charges, they will pay the penalty, if not, they are wound up.

In Rangers case, like many other businesses, there is a decision by the owners as to whether they think they can trade through the cash flow problem. One can only assume Craig Whyte thought he could find cash from somewhere (CL maybe) to sustain us longer.

His biggest mistake was he didn`t go in to administration when Maribor beat us as there was no way back.

If he had acted illegally, he would have been arrested and charged by now as HMRC don`t mess around in these kind of situations.

So to answer your question, Craig Whyte, if found guilty, has to face the music and as far as the club goes personally i don`t think we had any way of knowing what he was up to and therefor are innocent of all charges and therefor should start next season +10 points, receive an apology off everyone and be given a £20m warchest by the SFA.

How`s that for starters?.

 

[McRod]

Indeed, it's quit sad that all they can do is blame everyone else for their self inflicted ills.

Speed reading

 

[McRod]

Indeed, it's quit sad that all they can do is blame everyone else for their self inflicted ills.

Everyone else?

Are you deliberately ignoring the part the charlatans had to play in our downfall?

Explain, in your own words, what the decent innocent fans could or should have done to avoid this situation.

You can`t seem to seperate us from the chairman and therefor conclude that we had a big meeting and all 50 thousand of us decided to cheat, not pay tax etc?

Imagine for a moment, Milny boy was up to his ears in it, sacked all his directors and fiddled the books at night on his own by candlelight. What would you have done differently from the Players, staff and supporters of Rangers.

At what point would you have jumped in and stopped it. Tell us where we, the Rangers fans, went wrong?

 

[jamesy505]

I haven`t met a celtic fan yet with any worthwhile or valuable input in to this situation.

My search continues.

I didnt know reading a post on a forum constituted "meeting" people. Good luck with your social skills.

It is the attitudes of people like you that makes this car crash all the more enjoyable. You and Sandy Jardine would get on well.