The Rangers Saga and Fallout Thread

[jas72]

So should Rangers escape any and all punishment by the SFA then? Should they be allowed to build up massive debts by mismanagement, tax dodging and living far outside their means and just be allowed to walk away from all their responsibilities?
It sets a very dangerous precident. What is there to stop another club from racking up massive debts and then just starting up as a newco and a clean slate?
What about all the companies owed money by Rangers, from the local newsagent to other football clubs and the taxman, is it fair that they all don't get paid because of Rangers mismanagement?

If they had been just another company in an industrial estate somewhere, they would have been wound up and closed down by now. But because they are a football team and have fans, the normal laws and rules Don't apply?
How many times have we heard of companies going bust, walking away from their debts and before the ink has dried, started up again as a new company with the same assets and the same people in charge?
How is a newco in football any different?
If the CVA fails, how can, as has been mentioned several times, the new owners buy assets reputed to be worth £115 million (Ibrox n Murray Park) for around £5.5 million? Shouldn't these be sold at their proper value to pay off the creditors if the CVA fails?

Lastly, I am interested to hear what the Rangers fans would deem as a fair and suitable punishment for all these financial misdeeds?

You like many many others are confusing issues.

On the one hand you have the idea of sporting integrity which defines the football club.

On the other hand you have the business side of the club it's a registered company and falls under the law of the land not the sporting laws of the footballing world.

Rangers PLC Ltd. can as a company suffer from insolvancy go into administration arrange a CVA and the assets bought by a new company. This happens to businesses up and down the UK on a daily basis.

However you seem to be outraged at this and it stems from a confusion between club and company.

In answer to the question regarding what is to stop any other club racking up debts and starting again well from a company law point of view absolutely nothing!

As to your question regarding what should be done to Rangers for failing to pay HMRC on time well I along with quite a few other bears would see them being demoted a division or worst case to Div 3 as a new co.

I would deem this to be fair.

I've also stated before that HMRC knows that a properly run RFC generates income for the taxpayer, it is in the taxpayer's long term interest to have Rangers running as a properly managed football club rather than having an empty stadium and 170 people to pay unemployment benefit to.

 

[jamesy505]

Regarding the CVA process at Rangers, what I find ironic is that the administrators are factoring in transfer fees owed, for example the 3mil for Jelavic yet Rapid Vienna will not receive their expected payment for the same player. So techincally Rangers benefit twice - get the player, win trophies due to his goals, then sell the player and get the full fee while not paying the full original transfer fee.

Sometimes the rules seem like a joke

 

[Metalface Mark]

As to your question regarding what should be done to Rangers for failing to pay HMRC on time well I along with quite a few other bears would see them being demoted a division or worst case to Div 3 as a new co.

I would deem this to be fair.

I've also stated before that HMRC knows that a properly run RFC generates income for the taxpayer, it is in the taxpayer's long term interest to have Rangers running as a properly managed football club rather than having an empty stadium and 170 people to pay unemployment benefit to.

Its not fair though, Rangers have made a point of wanting punishments for sticking to the rules, if this is the case then a newco has no right of passage into the third division, and since we are sticking to the rules from now on, would have to have three years set of accounts before it can apply, as Gretna had to.

Rules will be rules as you all keep pointing out

I presume you think by your statement that HMRC will accept the CVA?

 

[steve1873]

The only people peddling the line that we need Rangers is Rangers, their supporters and the press who feed off them, its a myth.

If Morton were in the SPL instead of Rangers it would make us more money, if Dundee were in it would make St Johnstone and Dundee United more money etc etc.

It has been interesting to note that Doncaster in his interview was bigging up the attendances at scottish football which even without Rangers would be one of the best supported leagues per head of population in europe.

You are having a laugh now eh?

Clubs are dependant on television income. Without Rangers that income will be decreased exponentially. The deal would be worth a quarter of its current value. At best. To argue otherwise is all fine and well. But why do Sky have a clause requesting 4 Old Firm games per season? Answer, because it is the only fixture in Scottish football that draws a UK wide audience.

Geoff Brown who is the most experienced person currently within Scottish football, who has been involved with St. Johnstone for nearly 30 years and actually understands the economincs involved, unlike your good sefl apparently came out very early on and admitted without Rangers in the SPL it would result in many top flight clubs having to go part time or go out of business. The already poor standard within the SPL would drop even further.

Morton would make you more money than Rangers??? That is quite possibly THE single most ridiculous comment I have ever read on the entire internet.

 

[Mr.E.]

Morton would make you more money than Rangers??? That is quite possibly THE single most ridiculous comment I have ever read on the entire internet.

I'd like to hear the argument behind that one !

 

[Metalface Mark]

You are having a laugh now eh?

Clubs are dependant on television income. Without Rangers that income will be decreased exponentially. The deal would be worth a quarter of its current value. At best. To argue otherwise is all fine and well. But why do Sky have a clause requesting 4 Old Firm games per season? Answer, because it is the only fixture in Scottish football that draws a UK wide audience.

Geoff Brown who is the most experienced person currently within Scottish football, who has been involved with St. Johnstone for nearly 30 years and actually understands the economincs involved, unlike your good sefl apparently came out very early on and admitted without Rangers in the SPL it would result in many top flight clubs having to go part time or go out of business. The already poor standard within the SPL would drop even further.

Morton would make you more money than Rangers??? That is quite possibly THE single most ridiculous comment I have ever read on the entire internet.

This is purely heresay at the moment, sky have not clarified their position on whether there would be a reduction or not, its another myth peddled by the Rangers brigade to scare people.

Why is it a ridiculous statement? We get higher crowds in official competitions vs Morton than we do against Rangers.

 

[steve1873]

This is purely heresay at the moment, sky have not clarified their position on whether there would be a reduction or not, its another myth peddled by the Rangers brigade to scare people.

Why is it a ridiculous statement? We get higher crowds in official competitions vs Morton than we do against Rangers.

Perhaps if this was football in the 80's you MIGHT have some kind of argument. However, do you think perhaps an extra coupl of hunderd fans in your stadium twice per season would make up for the shortfall in sponsorship and tv revenue then you are not only mistaken, but in actual fact deluded.

People that actually work in football and know the finances involved have stated that an SPL with no Rangers would suffer serious financial implications.

 

[Metalface Mark]

As stated, anything to do with the TV deal at the moment is heresay. Sky have not commented on what would happen, neither have other sponsors. You pulled a figure of 1/4 out of thin air.

 

[McMav]

As stated, anything to do with the TV deal at the moment is heresay. Sky have not commented on what would happen, neither have other sponsors. You pulled a figure of 1/4 out of thin air.

But lets face it Mark if there wasnt the uncertainty about Rangers future the deal would already have been signed off. So they must surely be waiting to see the outcome before they decided what to offer/change offer.

 

[Metalface Mark]

But lets face it Mark if there wasnt the uncertainty about Rangers future the deal would already have been signed off. So they must surely be waiting to see the outcome before they decided what to offer/change offer.

Possibly, Im sure if Sky can renegotiate a better contract without Rangers in it, they will still sign a deal.

Its not exactly a huge deal for sky even at full whack though, its buttons compared to the Premiership and Championship, personally I think if there is a reduction, it would be no more than 25%.

 

[McMav]

Possibly, Im sure if Sky can renegotiate a better contract without Rangers in it, they will still sign a deal.

Its not exactly a huge deal for sky even at full whack though, its buttons compared to the Premiership and Championship, personally I think if there is a reduction, it would be no more than 25%.

Time will tell. They might not want to show a 1 horse race though. As the increased competition to finish 2nd instead of 3rd will hardly be a crowd pleaser

 

[afraser2k]

Time will tell. They might not want to show a 1 horse race though. As the increased competition to finish 2nd instead of 3rd will hardly be a crowd pleaser

Sky have already gone on record to say that if there are no guarantees over four Old Firm games a season then there's no TV deal so I don't think we'll have anything signed until the mess is sorted.

We'll probably see games back on BBC with the clubs desperate for money.

 

[steve1873]

Possibly, Im sure if Sky can renegotiate a better contract without Rangers in it, they will still sign a deal.

Its not exactly a huge deal for sky even at full whack though, its buttons compared to the Premiership and Championship, personally I think if there is a reduction, it would be no more than 25%.

Be prepared for a shock if Rangers are expelled or suspended by the SFA.

How can you say it is buttons? Do you think SKY invest in football for the fun of it. They do so for a return. To a) increase their subscriptions and b) sell airtime to advertisers - at a premium for a highly viewed event.

The Sky Financial gurus will be busy doing their calculations to see what kind of a drop in subscriptions they would anticipate losing if Rangers were no longer involved and at what cost to their potential advertising revenue. The SPL will only be offered a deal that makes financial sense to Sky.

Yes they invest billions in English football - do you think they do this at a loss?

 

[Metalface Mark]

Time will tell. They might not want to show a 1 horse race though. As the increased competition to finish 2nd instead of 3rd will hardly be a crowd pleaser

Possibly not, but fans of other clubs in the SPL (not Rangers and Celtic) would find it more interesting, they would be on sky more as it wouldnt be Rangers one week, Celtic the next as it usually is and for fans of other clubs, a one horse race is preferable to a two horse race.

Obviously for the armchair watcher and English/Welsh viewers a two horse race is better viewing but for the majority of fans who watch, we would be happier with a one horse race and hopefully over time, as Celtic would inevitably shrink, it would make it far more competitive.

 

[Metalface Mark]

Sky have already gone on record to say that if there are no guarantees over four Old Firm games a season then there's no TV deal so I don't think we'll have anything signed until the mess is sorted.

We'll probably see games back on BBC with the clubs desperate for money.

Sky havent said this.

 

[Metalface Mark]

Be prepared for a shock if Rangers are expelled or suspended by the SFA.

How can you say it is buttons? Do you think SKY invest in football for the fun of it. They do so for a return. To a) increase their subscriptions and b) sell airtime to advertisers - at a premium for a highly viewed event.

The Sky Financial gurus will be busy doing their calculations to see what kind of a drop in subscriptions they would anticipate losing if Rangers were no longer involved and at what cost to their potential advertising revenue. The SPL will only be offered a deal that makes financial sense to Sky.

Yes they invest billions in English football - do you think they do this at a loss?

There is also a huge sky betting operation that is linked to matches they show live, they would not want to lose this.

Did the SPL go under when Sky pulled out before and we had the BBC deal for a couple of seasons? Its no different, if Sky pulled out, there would be others to take their place, they wouldnt pay as much but it would be enough to keep the chairmen happy.

 

[McMav]

There is also a huge sky betting operation that is linked to matches they show live, they would not want to lose this.

Did the SPL go under when Sky pulled out before and we had the BBC deal for a couple of seasons? Its no different, if Sky pulled out, there would be others to take their place, they wouldnt pay as much but it would be enough to keep the chairmen happy.

You assume it would keep chairmen happy.

Time will tell. Personally I believe if we vanish we'll take a good few clubs with us. I could live with that.

 

[steve1873]

There is also a huge sky betting operation that is linked to matches they show live, they would not want to lose this.

Did the SPL go under when Sky pulled out before and we had the BBC deal for a couple of seasons? Its no different, if Sky pulled out, there would be others to take their place, they wouldnt pay as much but it would be enough to keep the chairmen happy.

LOL. You've been listening to Jim Spence haven't you? He is the only person I have hear try to justify Sky continuing to invest in Scottish football at the current levels by using SkyBet. A huge percentage of the Scottish viewers using SkyBet are Rangers supporters for god sake!!!

 

[Metalface Mark]

You assume it would keep chairmen happy.

Time will tell. Personally I believe if we vanish we'll take a good few clubs with us. I could live with that.

Yeah, time will tell, if clubs go down as a result of their own financial overspending then they have nobody to blame, not Rangers, not the SPL but themselves.

Some clubs spent when the financial world was giving money out to everyone, Motherwell, Dunfermline, Hearts, Dundee and a few others, these clubs have no one to blame if they go down permanently.

 

[JUMPURS]

As stated, anything to do with the TV deal at the moment is heresay. Sky have not commented on what would happen, neither have other sponsors. You pulled a figure of 1/4 out of thin air.

Don't forget, when Celtic went to Seville in 2003 with players the calibre of Henrik Larsson, Chris Sutton and Stan Petrov, we did so when the SPL had a BBC contract.