The Tesla Thread

[Phate]

The problem is right now is that its a guessing game. We can only make estimated assumptions based on history. Pricing should be available in just over a month anyway so that will put an end to speculation.

I'm annoyed that the long range at this moment in time is only available in dual motor, as dual motor adds absolutely nothing for me other than additional expense. I'd like to hope that when it comes to actually ordering there will be another long range single engine option.

 

[Amp34]

The problem is right now is that its a guessing game. We can only make estimated assumptions based on history. Pricing should be available in just over a month anyway so that will put an end to speculation.

I'm annoyed that the long range at this moment in time is only available in dual motor, as dual motor adds absolutely nothing for me other than additional expense. I'd like to hope that when it comes to actually ordering there will be another long range single engine option.

Totally, but I think it’s extreme wishful thinking to be considering the LR version at 40k, unless you’re including incentives in that price. But you never know, it may be cheaper.

They’re trying to streamline production by reducing the number of options so they can produce more vehicles, while still making the most profitable models unfortunately. I doubt the single motor bersion will be available again for at least another year or two, when demand reduces and they have more space on their production line.

 

[Phate]

Maybe so. Let's wait and see. I did just think that the mid range version is still over 400km on a charge. And now there is a sognificant price difference between the two. That's not an option off the table either. LR is ideal but you're right. I think it is wishful thinking.

I've got to get a promotion at work first for the company car eligibility before anything

 

[Jonnycoupe]

It’s the Teslarati at large on OCUK!

 

[Phate]

It’s the Teslarati at large on OCUK!

I found myself pretty nonchalant about it when I was on my way but then when I knew I was about 10 seconds from seeing it I caught myself subconsciously grinning from ear to ear. After all this time, 2 years of nerding out Online and countless Youtube videos, I was finally going to see and be up close to THE car.

I find myself way more excited about EV's over any other cars these days.

 

[Journey]

Mrs was like that when she went for her Model S test drive, she's dying to get her paws on her first full EV.

 

[ExoMale]

Quite.


The problem is that to do, say, a long drive across France, there aren't enough charging points along the way, and a journey that currently sees me stopping one for fuel and taking 11 hours would take me many days and involve waiting around for the car to charge.

why would you want to be an electric car for such a journey? i cant imagine they would be the best tourers types.

 

[TripleT]

Given that video was from Bloomberg it was pretty shocking, it had some pretty big editorial issues that even I spotted on the first watch. They had Model S b-roll even though the video was exclusive to Model 3 and the had a picture of a Chevy Volt but said they benched it against a Bolt which is a completely different car.

What they said about the body is interesting, they describe it as expensive, complex, heavy, too stiff and hard to manufacture.

What I can't really understand is that you have Munro who are generally respected in the field saying the body 'design is so poor' yet the NHTSA say the Model 3 offers the lowest probability of injury in a Model 3 over any other car tested.

That's not to say the body design couldn't be improved but one of the key features of a car for me is the protection it offers me in a crash and the body is a key component of that so they must be doing something right. That being said they were very positive about the rest of the car.

https://electrek.co/2018/10/07/tesla-model-3-lowest-probability-of-injury-nhtsa/

Some of the crash test video's are eye opening when compared to pretty safe ICE cars...

I read it more as, they're struggling with profit margins and production line efficiencies yet they've designed some overly complicated body which is massively hindering them. Yes it's rigid and yes it's safe but it's not like a 3 series or whatever are death-traps.

Seems very strange and shows a bit of inexperience naivity really. There's a reason why no other mass produced car is like that.

As you say the rest is very good. Selling the motors and battery tech to a giant like say Ford would be an interesting proposition.

 

[Diddums]

I read it more as, they're struggling with profit margins and production line efficiencies yet they've designed some overly complicated body which is massively hindering them. Yes it's rigid and yes it's safe but it's not like a 3 series or whatever are death-traps.

Seems very strange and shows a bit of inexperience naivity really. There's a reason why no other mass produced car is like that.

As you say the rest is very good. Selling the motors and battery tech to a giant like say Ford would be an interesting proposition.

Their financial issues aside, Tesla managed to bring a decent car to market and shake up the entire car industry whilst stepping over the corpses of hundreds of failed car companies along the way. For a company which started from scratch, with not even a wheel nut to go from, playing it safe and over engineering their car bodies certainly seemed to have paid off. They started at the safest end of the market and can only simplify, rather than create electric tin cans and hope, gradually improving. As much as I dislike Musk, he certainly played his cards well.

 

[lordrobs]

I found myself pretty nonchalant about it when I was on my way but then when I knew I was about 10 seconds from seeing it I caught myself subconsciously grinning from ear to ear. After all this time, 2 years of nerding out Online and countless Youtube videos, I was finally going to see and be up close to THE car.

I find myself way more excited about EV's over any other cars these days.

Nerding out seems to be a key requirement for owning one The guy I know with an S is always harping on about how he's waiting for the latest firmware to drop so he can do... something that sounds pretty uninteresting like activating the Nextbase dashcam function or something

Having been in it I'm too luddite to want to own one. I just want a car to be a car. I don't need it to come to me at a snails pace while I stand there like a lemon with the app on my phone. I don't want the key to be a toy car and I want actual buttons to do basic functions. I also want it to be the same car it was yesterday with the same features not 'updated' because Elon had a whim to release some new feature I didn't want

 

[jpaul]

What I can't really understand is that you have Munro who are generally respected in the field saying the body 'design is so poor' yet the NHTSA say the Model 3 offers the lowest probability of injury in a Model 3 over any other car tested.

10s fact check so it was another lie (edit: by tesla!)
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-claim-goes-beyond-its-analysis-idUSKCN1MJ2HR

The Model 3 achieved the top rating, five stars, on that ranking along with other vehicles such as the 2018 model Volvo S60, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Honda Civic, Volkswagen Jetta and Ford Mustang cars.

“NHTSA does not distinguish safety performance beyond the star rating with five stars being the highest safety rating a vehicle can achieve. Thus, there is no NHTSA ‘safest’ ranking within the five-star category,” the agency said.

Tesla on Sunday said in a blog post, “NHTSA’s tests also show (the Model 3) has the lowest probability of injury of all cars the safety agency has ever tested.” That claim prompted numerous blogs and commentators to call the Model 3 the “safest ever” vehicle. Tesla said it had engineered the car to be “the safest car ever built.”

Tesla said Tuesday its assessment was calculated using publicly available data, taking the weighted average of crash scores to calculate a vehicle safety score and then multiplying it by a baseline injury risk value.

 

[Phate]

@Raymond Lin is in town and he wanted to go see the Model 3, so I met him there and took a good second look over it. This time I was less zommmgg and more focused on trying to find faults with it and I noticed one or two things that whilst they would irk me...nothing that would hold me off.

So to get these out of the way:

- Door open buttons in the rear, their positioning is downright awkward. On the front doors they're in a very natural position, and on the rears they sit under where your arm rests, meaning you hand to move your hand back. I am only a short person and I could just reach them after moving my arm back and bending my wrist. This isn't a deal breaker as I doubt I'll ever sit in the rear of mine. Or if I do, it will be on extremely rare occasions, so its no big deal for me.

- Rear boot lighting. It feels underwhelming. Its got an led on each side and they're pretty weak, also due to the tunnel like design of the boot they didn't seem to be having much effect, but then again I was in a bright show room so maybe they're just being overpowered by being in the showroom.

- Speaking more on the boot, no tie down points. Not a dealbreaker for me but maybe for some.

- Sitting in the front, there are no grab handles above the door frame like in 99% of other cars. Not something which bothers me, but again, it could bother some. Seems like a simple thing to miss out on.

Otherwise I struggled to find anything I didn't like about it. This time I did pay particular attention to the rear bench height as someone else mentioned and spent a good amount of time sitting in the back. When I saw Raymond sitting in it it it did look a bit high but I went and sat in the back on the other side and it just doesn't feel like it when you're in it, clever seat design I guess. The glass roof is immensely impressive and one of my favourite things about the car.

Also in the rear you have some discrete coat hooks which fold in to the headlining when not in use. You can see a video of that in use here. https://photos.app.goo.gl/1Qgm1ZbfpCE2ZpkCA

Couple of last bits, I looked more closely into how the screen fits in the dash and its made to look natural. They've basically reduced the amount the dash comes out from the front of the cabin and then stuck the screen on top of that. So what thats done is given more cabin space and allowed the screen to just fit nicely

Also, did you know this car has a web browser?

Lastly, I asked about pricing, and the guy said why they don't have anything official he believes if you take the US price, convert to € then add 11% for IVA (tax) then that should get you very close to the public price. He said if you're buying via a company then it will be less tax although he wasn't sure how much.

Following that math, a mid-range, white with with 19 inch wheels, white interior works out at €48k - there is a 2.5k incentive here so minus that, €46311 - which is about my theoretical limit, depending on how it goes with work.

From what I can guess, it'll either be just over and or just within the budget available.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

10s fact check so it was another lie (edit: by tesla!)
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-claim-goes-beyond-its-analysis-idUSKCN1MJ2HR

How was what I said a lie? Your quote says exactly what I said....

The NHTSA rated the car as having a lowest probability of injury, with the S and the X in 2nd and 3rd.

The NHTSA quite rightly do not rank cars outside of the 5 star rating as it a fixed rating, a car either meets it or it doesn't. Its neutral and doesn't show favoritism to any car that meets the spec, it encourages manufacturers to meet the right standard and not to try and one up each other for the wrong reasons. But that doesn't change the fact Tesla cars have a lower probability of injury out of all tested vehicles (by some margin too) which is exactly what I said. This is a rating that the NHTSA give.

Its not my fault blogs have said that NHTSA rated Tesla having the 'safest' car, your right that isn't true but its not what I said. But lets be honest those blogs are not wrong. Over-engineered body, huge front crumple zone due to lack of engine, rigid sides and floor due to huge battery (normally a vulnerable part of a car). I would rather be in a Tesla than any other car if I was in an accident, the crash test comparison videos are eye opening.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Thanks for the follow up @Phate.

 

[jpaul]

How was what I said a lie? Your quote says exactly what I said....

don't understand ... as I said Tesla was lieing in its interpretation of the NHTSA result - not you, who reported what they had said (which was why I had clarified/edited the post to remove ambiguity)

I was trying to find out on NHTSA site what they had 'won' on (since the metrics have some degree of subjective and objective measures) I could not find that,
but saw the article I linked.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

This is the official release from Tesla:
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/model-3-lowest-probability-injury-any-vehicle-ever-tested-nhtsa

At no point point does it say the NHTSA rated the Model 3 as the 'safest car', cars can only be rated 1-5 stats. What the NHTSA does do though is assign a car a 'vehicle safety score' which represents 'relative risk of injury'. The model 3 has received the best one of any car tested hence the whole 'lowest probability of injury' not 'safest car'. The media spin more complex stories into sound byte headlines to sell ads, most people don't have the attention span to interpret basic statistical models and would just rather be told X is better than Y hence all the 'safest car' stories.

Based on the advanced architecture of Model S and Model X, which were previously found by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) to have the lowest and second lowest probabilities of injury of all cars ever tested, we engineered Model 3 to be the safest car ever built. Now, not only has Model 3 achieved a perfect 5-star safety rating in every category and sub-category, but NHTSA’s tests also show that it has the lowest probability of injury of all cars the safety agency has ever tested.

NHTSA tested Model 3 Long Range Rear-Wheel Drive as part of its New Car Assessment Program, a series of crash tests used to calculate the likelihood of serious bodily injury for front, side and rollover crashes. The agency’s data shows that vehicle occupants are less likely to get seriously hurt in these types of crashes when in a Model 3 than in any other car. NHTSA’s previous tests of Model S and Model X still hold the record for the second and third lowest probabilities of injury, making Tesla vehicles the best ever rated by NHTSA.

Methodology
While NHTSA’s New Car Assessment Program doesn’t distinguish safety performance beyond its 5-star scale, every car rated by NHTSA since 2011 is assigned a Vehicle Safety Score, which NHTSA calculates by taking the weighted average of the Relative Risk Scores (RRS) in front, side and rollover crashes. We compared the underlying and publicly-available NHTSA data for each published vehicle since this calculation protocol began in 2011 (dockets: NHTSA-2010-0164, NHTSA-2011-0085, NHTSA-2012-0055, NHTSA-2013-0053, NHTSA-2014-0043, NHTSA-2015-0034, NHTSA-2016-0045, NHTSA-2017-0037).

The Vehicle Safety Score represents the “relative risk of injury with respect to a baseline of 15%,” according to NHTSA. Model 3 achieved a Vehicle Safety Score of 0.38, which is lower than any other vehicle rated in NHTSA’s public documents. By multiplying the Vehicle Safety Score by NHTSA’s 15% baseline figure, we arrived at an overall probability of injury for Model 3 of 5.7%. Applying the same calculation to each of the vehicles rated in NHTSA’s documents, we found that Model S achieved an overall probability of injury of 6.3%, and Model X achieved an overall probability of injury of 6.5%, making them the vehicles with the second and third lowest probabilities of injury, respectively, based on NHTSA’s publicly-available data and records.

We respect that NHTSA only endorses ratings from 1-5 stars so they can be helpful for the public to make quick and easy comparisons. The star ratings are especially helpful to show on the Monroney window stickers of new vehicles that are offered for sale. At the same time, we used NHTSA’s own methodology and data to help further educate the public about important safety information.

 

[jpaul]

Looks like the salient point in Tesla's report is

we found that Model S achieved an overall probability of injury of 6.3%, and Model X achieved an overall probability of injury of 6.5%, making them the vehicles with the second and third lowest probabilities of injury, respectively, based on NHTSA’s publicly-available data and records.

there do not appear to be many cars in that data - the 2018 data has just 91 car results, often for different models of the same series, and just one BMW/x1 and one Mercedes/glc, which does not look like a universal set of new cars..
.. must be someone on reddit who already examined their claims ....

EDIT: afterthought volvo v60 should be pretty safe ? but not crash rated by nhtsa !
https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2017/VOLVO/V60/SW/FWD

 

[jpaul]

Had a further look at the NHSTA web site , no crash test on any BMW 3 series either, afaiks, they seem to test suv's mostly and (all?) EV's ?, so,
the tesla 3 has better crash stats than that kind of vehicle ... that's good;
moreover I would like to know why they tested a T3 then ? ... because of notoriety of tesla/AP crashes.

 

[jpaul]

no comments ? show me evidence that a Tesla3 has better crash protection than a bmw 3 series or a volvo v60 say, (beyond the 5 stars they all share)

 

[Lashout_UK]

Just for reference, Tesla's often not been top of the class – if you look at Euro NCAP, for example, it tested a Model S in '14 which got five stars. Scored 82% for adult occupant protection, 77% for children, 66% for pedestrians.

Smaller Mercedes-Benz C-Class from 2014 also attained the full five-star rating, scoring a higher 92% for adult protection, 84% for children and 77% for pedestrians.

I only pick the C-Class as that was tested under the same regime. Skoda Fabia from 2014 achieved 81% for adult protection, too...

Not that this indicates anything for the Model 3 but it's worth bearing in mind. As most have already noticed, it's not like the 3's being compared to much else...