The Tesla Thread

That is my point really, it's gloried cruise control, and should disable if your hands go absent from the wheel :) I'm surprised they have not been sued to the destruction already.
 
Why though? Tesla state that the user should be ready to take control of the car at all times when using autopilot, hands on the wheel or otherwise?

"I did what you told me not to do, therefore I will sue" - Typical American culture right there.

Current cruise control systems in other cars do not disable themselves if I take my hand off the wheel. If I stack it in my Passat for not grabbing the wheel quick enough should I sue VW? :p
 
You are driving then though, not the Tesla. The company is at fault all day long for calling it autopilot.

automatic
ɔːtəˈmatɪk/
adjective
  1. 1.
    (of a device or process) working by itself with little or no direct human control.
 
Presumably Tesla have data that shows how many warning users have for hands not detected on the wheel, so what % of journeys were conducted in that manner for different road types. (the mechanism for detecting hands appears to need a discrenible force - so itself not 100% accurate - need a better mechanism ?)

If they produced these stats they could show whether there is much general irresponsible use, and, for individuals, data could proove circumstantial in any accidents too.
(thinking of UK prosecutions abandoned because phone records were not analysed)
Tesla can somewhat exonerate themselves with such data.
 
We've literally established multiple times calling it Autopilot is a mistake and its misleading :p

From Teslas own website.

Tesla’s Enhanced Autopilot software has begun rolling out and features will continue to be introduced as validation is completed, subject to regulatory approval. Every driver is responsible for remaining alert and active when using Autopilot, and must be prepared to take action at any time.
Click to expand...

So regardless of how you interpret it, the company is telling you YOU are responsible.
 
Phate said:
We've literally established multiple times calling it Autopilot is a mistake and its misleading :p

From Teslas own website.



So regardless of how you interpret it, the company is telling you YOU are responsible.
Click to expand...

Its silly drivers who are crashing! People think its IRobot time already :)
 
Phate said:
Why though? Tesla state that the user should be ready to take control of the car at all times when using autopilot, hands on the wheel or otherwise?

"I did what you told me not to do, therefore I will sue" - Typical American culture right there.

Current cruise control systems in other cars do not disable themselves if I take my hand off the wheel. If I stack it in my Passat for not grabbing the wheel quick enough should I sue VW? :p
Click to expand...

It's only a matter of time before someone in the US sues on the basis that the name "Autopilot" gave them the expectation that the car drives itself. It's not like Tesla gives training to the drivers to tell them otherwise, or even that they can prove that owners have read the manuals. It will also bring up the question of why, if the car can do all this assist stuff but can't drive itself, why doesn't the car do more to make sure the diver can't let go of the wheel or get out of paying attention to driving the car.

Yes, it's ridiculous, but it will happen, even if it's just some lawyers trying to get settlement cash out of Tesla. In the end, Tesla (and other manufacturers) are moving towards taking responsibility for driving the car away from the owner and into their systems. We're still trying to draw the line of where that responsibility for safely driving the car is between the driver and the cars systems (and the manufacturers who supply them).

At least with level 5 self-driving cars, you know where the line is drawn.
 
Steampunk said:
In the end, Tesla (and other manufacturers) are moving towards taking responsibility for driving the car away from the owner and into their systems. We're still trying to draw the line of where that responsibility for safely driving the car is between the driver and the cars systems (and the manufacturers who supply them).

At least with level 5 self-driving cars, you know where the line is drawn.
Click to expand...
 
@Steampunk

Waymo determined years ago that the only self driving car they would put on the road would have no human involvement and its Level 4 vehicles driving around Phoenix suburbs today have no human in the front seat. They are the only ones to have reached Level 4 in active use and they plan to launch their commercial ride hailing Level 4 service this year. No human input at the wheel.

Tesla Autopilot today is at best a Level 2 solution. There is clearly something wrong with their marketing and with their strategic thinking in even putting a Level 2 "Autopilot" solution on the road given what Waymo has written and spoken about now for some years.
 
People using technology in an inadvisable fashion, due to its capabilities or how it's advertised, isn't a new issue.

mukZiry.jpg


Care to guess what year this is from?

1958. :D

The onus is on the manufacturer to make sure that these kind of situations can't develop.
 
All this talk about weather the name is misleading is irrelevant in my opinion, the car warns you to pay attention and keep your hands on the wheel every time you engage the system. You would have to be really naive to think that the car will just 100% drive its self when every message, document and publicity tell you otherwise. Humans are the weak link, just look at all the health and safety measures that have to be put in place everywhere. It cracks me up that even packets of peanuts have warnings on them to say they contain nuts.

For me its no difference to all those people that use their phone, speed, drink and drive or just don't pay attention (autopilot or not). You know its wrong, you know its against the law yet you see it every single time you get in a car. People generally just don't care about the law or any advice/instructions and will just do what they want because they think they know best. Cars are now so much safer but the draw back of this is that people are now much more comfortable when taking bigger risks. If they do crash the chances are you will come out of the other side.

As for the name, its been said many times. An aircraft 'autopilot' requires the operator to remain alert and active at all times and able to take over at a moments notice. You never see a pilot turn on the the system, then both the pilot and co-pilot kick back and take a nap. I'm sure if they did then we would all have something to say. The dangers in the air are just very different to those on the ground and to think they are the same thing is just idiotic. Every statistic says that flying is safer than driving yet the level of care when driving is exponentially lower than what happens when you fly.

The name can also be interpreted in different ways, 'auto' can mean both 'automotive' and 'automatic'. So you end up with 'automotive pilot' (aka car pilot) and 'automatic pilot'. Either way the name is technically correct.

People accept that other things with 'auto' in their name are not 100% reliable, I think we can all relate to 'auto correct' as being far from reliable. So why is this system held to a different standard especially when it constantly tells you it isn't reliable.
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
For me its no difference to all those people that use their phone, speed, drink and drive or just don't pay attention
Click to expand...
unlike them, there is no AP legislation, forcing people to employ a modicum of common sense (you must be in full control at all time is inadequate)
The analogies being made with facebook and their lack of responsibility for product use, seem pertinant
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
All this talk about weather the name is misleading is irrelevant in my opinion, the car warns you to pay attention and keep your hands on the wheel every time you engage the system. You would have to be really naive to think that the car will just 100% drive its self when every message, document and publicity tell you otherwise. Humans are the weak link, just look at all the health and safety measures that have to be put in place everywhere. It cracks me up that even packets of peanuts have warnings on them to say they contain nuts.

For me its no difference to all those people that use their phone, speed, drink and drive or just don't pay attention (autopilot or not). You know its wrong, you know its against the law yet you see it every single time you get in a car. People generally just don't care about the law or any advice/instructions and will just do what they want because they think they know best. Cars are now so much safer but the draw back of this is that people are now much more comfortable when taking bigger risks. If they do crash the chances are you will come out of the other side.
Click to expand...

And that is exactly why you have to take human behaviour into account when integrating humans into any system. You either have to design to use human behaviour as a benefit, design the human factor out, or add extra design towards dealing with undesirable human behaviour and minimising it's impact. People can't be trusted (especially if they are not highly trained), so you can't simply put a warning and trust humans to do the right thing. That's a cop-out about liability, rather than safety.
 
Lashout_UK said:
http://uk.businessinsider.com/tesla-model-3-market-share-claims-are-flawed-2018-6

http://capitolzero.com/2018/06/06/t...-competitors-like-mercedes-bmw-and-audi-tsla/
Click to expand...

I don’t disagree with anything said in those articles (I agree with most of it in fact) however they fail to analyze where the lost sales for the expanding EV market are coming from. Most people don’t just buy a car because they want it, they usually have a need for it and will be replacing or not buying another vehicle. The saloon market is in decline and while some may be moving into it from other segments (such as SUVs) to get into an EV, many of them are going to be coming from the saloon market. Someone that was going to pay £15-25k for a Mondeo (or a focus, Civic or Golf for that matter) isn’t suddenly going to be able to afford a £40k+ car even when fuel and incentive savings are taken into account. Neither is it likely that most would have bought a Range Rover or other larger SUV, it’s a totally different size.

Tesla are in a bit of a bind there with their M3, it’s priced like a premium vehicle, but it’s not a premium vehicle. When BMW and Merc have similarly priced vehicles in the same size segment I’ll be intrigued to know where Tesla will get their sales from. By that time have they created a big enough niche and cachet for their brand that people are willing to pay a premium for their vehicles, or are they going to have to substantially reduce the cost to fit them into the more mainstream and compete directly with the likes of Ford, Hyundai and GM? They have the benefit that they’re fairly unique right now, but it’s not going to stay that way for much longer.
 
jpaul said:
unlike them, there is no AP legislation, forcing people to employ a modicum of common sense (you must be in full control at all time is inadequate)
The analogies being made with facebook and their lack of responsibility for product use, seem pertinant
Click to expand...

Consumer advocacy group says Tesla must fix "flaws" in Autopilot.
"
David Friedman, director of Cars and Product Policy and Analysis for Consumers Union, the advocacy arm of Consumer Reports, said the NTSB’s “alarming report reinforces why Tesla must respond immediately to previous concerns raised about its driver-assist system.”

Friedman said the crash “demonstrates that Tesla’s system can’t dependably navigate common road situations on its own, and fails to keep the driver engaged exactly when it is needed most.”

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-t...-fatal-crash-u-s-consumer-group-idUKKCN1J42HI
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
All this talk about weather the name is misleading is irrelevant in my opinion, the car warns you to pay attention and keep your hands on the wheel every time you engage the system. You would have to be really naive to think that the car will just 100% drive its self when every message warns to keep hands on the wheel.
Click to expand...

You can watch the utube idiots trying to fool the system, and the above is totaly correct, it flashs, beeps and warns you many times to take control of the viechle. anyone who ignores them warnings thinking auto pilot or any other saftey feauture is going to save them need a visit to the the men with white coats. I wouldnt trust any system to just drive me from A to B no matter what level the automated system might be at.
and when the car warns you with a flashing dashboard and beeps warning messages only a fool would ignore that. So let the fools crash and burn, and the sensible drivers enjoy there tesla!
 
jpaul said:
Conspicuous Conservation: The Prius Effect and Willingness to Pay for Environmental Bona Fides∗
courtesy of
..we're a fickle lot ? green signalling , even if 60% of usa electrcity is from fossil fuels.
Click to expand...

Again, I don't disagree that people are willing to pay a bit more for a “green” product, but here we’re talking 2-3x more.

Interestingly though there are a few datapoints on this subject (although not hugely reliable). Firstly the average income of a model 3 buyer being around $127k, and secondly a rather ropy poll pointing from a Tesla Owners Facebook group.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/insideevs.com/poll-results-bmw-3-series-top-trade-tesla-model-3/amp/

Which shows that Model 3 sales are potentially cannibalising other EV sales (makes sense), but of the ICE vehicles it’s BMW and their 3 series that’s taking the biggest hit.

However, there is a contradiction. A poll taken early last year suggested that reservation holders were twice as likely to own a Toyota than a BMW. “The pragmatic choice”, cheap, reliable and “safe”.

https://dailykanban.com/2017/03/mod...rvey-underlines-teslas-mass-market-challenge/

However that poll was done in March last year when the $27,500 Model 3 ($35k-$7,500 incentive) was a potential. It’s now clearly not going to happen in large numbers as the $35k model 3 is not coming until next year, when the incentive is likely to be at the very least halved due to sales of the more expensive $45k+ versions.

So I’d agree, it’s not as clear cut as Tesla are making out, but at the same time I very much doubt the premium segment aren’t taking a hit on sales from them. Again, not much of an issue for most manufacturers because they make their money on crossovers and SUVs, which Tesla aren’t going to target until around 2020/2021, and sales of the Camry, Accord and non premium saloons in the US are an order of magnitude higher than the premium Marques.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2018/0...-sales-rankings-best-selling-cars-in-america/

BMW/Merc sell around 3000-5000 of each individual model a month. Toyota, Nissan and Honda sell 30,000 of each of their multiple models, so Tesla aren’t going to make much of a dent in their sales figures at all. So I’ll stick by my comment that the premium Marques are likely to feel Tesla’s growth more than the non premium brands.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom