This is why people are losing respect for the police...

[jpaul]

After the Bianca case -
fascinating take by Anthony joshua - someone actually famous, who was/2009 pulled over speeding with 8oz of marijuana, then a regular habit,
he jokes about police stopping every black man, but is zen about experience, not a victim mentality.

Louis theroux has matured into someone watchable . - https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001s8nh/louis-theroux-interviews-series-2-1-anthony-joshua

 

[jpaul]

Police caught it in the neck again - Bulley, they didn't brief journalists on personal info, so that newspapers & social media virals/speculation were curtailed -
Everard wasn't mentioned, but thought recollections of that, was a major driver, equally social media could be more recriminated

Police Professional | Disclosure of sensitive personal information in Nicola Bulley case ‘unnecessary’, review finds

“The failure to brief the mainstream media on a non-reportable basis on this information, or to adequately fill the information vacuum, allowed speculation to run unchecked,” it added.

“The loss of control over the media narrative by Lancashire Constabulary was, in part, due to the decision-making and leadership of the chief officer team.

“While all the component parts of an effective response were present, they were not fully delivered to the level required. Improved awareness, decision-making and oversight from the chief officer team would have proved beneficial, including recognition of the added significance and complexity caused by the media and social media interest.

 

[the shadow]

Officer who stole seized cash from evidence store ordered to pay £32k

Dorset Police officer Lisa Arnold stole cash from an evidence room from between October 2018 and March 2022.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[sg0]

Not sure how I feel about this.

Met police officer used Taser on 10-year-old girl twice, misconduct hearing told

PC Jonathan Broadhead accused of using unreasonable force against girl who was holding garden shears

www.theguardian.com

This kid is clearly dangerous to her Mum but to copper with a stab vest?

 

[Fr0dders]

The key sentence for me here was "within 8 seconds of entering the house"

Too quick to act when we're talking about a child. There will have been lots of options available to the officer to try and diffuse the station without needing to reset to taser. Thank god we live in the UK where your average officer only has non lethal force - but it's this black and white attitude of the police that using force like this is the only option that's the problem.

Being blunt, most parents have to deal with agressive teenagers most days of the week and manage to resolve conflict without having to use force like that on a 10 year old. Officer was too trigger happy.

No sympathy for the child however - important life lesson learnt. **** about with weapons and don't pay attention to what the police tell you and this is what happens.

 

[Caracus2k]

Not sure how I feel about this.

Met police officer used Taser on 10-year-old girl twice, misconduct hearing told

PC Jonathan Broadhead accused of using unreasonable force against girl who was holding garden shears

www.theguardian.com

This kid is clearly dangerous to her Mum but to copper with a stab vest?

Stab vests don't cover the head, neck groin, legs or arms.

It's perfectly reasonable for a police officer to use a taser on anyone, of any age threatening someone with a bladed implement like a pair of shears when they have failed to comply with a direction to drop them or where they are in a postion to immediately attack and their actions suggest this is likely.

It's not reasonable to expect a police officer to have to grapple with someone , hand to hand, to relieve them of such a weapon.

 

[Caracus2k]

The key sentence for me here was "within 8 seconds of entering the house"

Too quick to act when we're talking about a child.. There will have been lots of options available to the officer to try and diffuse the station without needing to reset to taser. Thank god we live in the UK where your average officer only has non lethal force - but it's this black and white attitude of the police that using force like this is the only option that's the problem.

Being blunt, most parents have to deal with agressive teenagers most days of the week and manage to resolve conflict without having to use force like that on a 10 year old. Officer was too trigger happy.

No sympathy for the child however - important life lesson learnt. **** about with weapons and don't pay attention to what the police tell you and this is what happens.

A police officer in the USA shot and killed Ma'Khia Bryant within seconds if arriving on scene whe she was in the process of trying to plunge a knife into a woman present at the altercation.

Sometimes there isn't time to try much verbal resolution and if a person is armed and presents an immediate threat to a third party it should be preferable for them to be hit with a taser then for police inaction to leave third parties at ongoing risk.

Too quick to act when we're talking about a child.

This is largely irrelevant when you are talking about someone with an edged weapon or firearm.

 

[Fr0dders]

I think this is question for us as the public to judge. What do we as the public expect of our officers. Flip the question. would we have criticised the police had the child been able to injure or kill their mother if they did so whilst the police officer was attempting to negotiate with the child and try and bring about a peaceful resolution ?

No. I would have said the police was doing their job in trying to diffuse it. That's what we pay them for. We don't pay them to taser children.

The requirement that they must act now using such force in order to avoid them injuring something is down to a perceived requirement of the job. I think the "perceived" bit is key, because I think if you were a unfiormed officer - you would argue there is no perceived about it - what's what I've been trained to do and what my superiors have told me is expected of me. And that's the problem. The police are losing public trust - because they should be more closely aligned with the public perception of what is expected of them - vs what they think is expected of them.

 

[Caracus2k]

No. I would have said the police was doing their job in trying to diffuse it. That's what we pay them for. We don't pay them to taser children.

Emotional claptrap of the sort that frequently litters these threads.

Officers are taught something in some of their training where someone is placed in front of them with a knife (a prop rubber one).

The 'stooge' is told to try and stab the officer. The officer tries to draw their baton (or in the states their gun) from their utility belt to defend themselves.

Most will fail this task at anything under around feet in distance.

As I said it's largely irrelevant whether your are dealing with a child, a woman or anyone else when looking at a gun or edged weapon.

The relevant thing is their ability to use that weapon and their demeanor and their actions to indicate the likelihood of them doing so.

Given the above example within a typical UK household enviroment there will be a very small timeframe to act even where a weapon has already been drawn by an officer.

 

[sg0]

Stab vests don't cover the head, neck groin, legs or arms.

It's perfectly reasonable for a police officer to use a taser on anyone, of any age threatening someone with a bladed implement like a pair of shears when they have failed to comply with a direction to drop them or where they are in a postion to immediately attack and their actions suggest this is likely.

It's not reasonable to expect a police officer to have to grapple with someone , hand to hand, to relieve them of such a weapon.

Emotional claptrap of the sort that frequently litters these threads.

Officers are taught something in some of their training where someone is placed in front of them with a knife (a prop rubber one).

The 'stooge' is told to try and stab the officer. The officer tries to draw their baton (or in the states their gun) from their utility belt to defend themselves.

Most will fail this task at anything under around 21 meters in distance.

As I said it's largely irrelevant whether your are dealing with a child, a woman or anyone else when looking at a gun or edged weapon.

The relevant thing is their ability to use that weapon and their demeanor and their actions to indicate the likelihood of them doing so.

Given the above example within a typical UK household enviroment there will be a very small timeframe to act even where a weapon has already been drawn by an officer.

Yeah I kinda gathered that a stab vest didn't cover those areas. Perhaps a stab onesie would be appropriate?

So what did police use on kids before tasers? Going by your logic there is no cut off point. An abused kid that's lost it! How about that? Granted if someone lunged with a weapon, i get that.

If the kid had died then what?

This sounds absolutely awful so I hope this will teach her a lesson. I bet they won't be asking her to cut the hedge for a while.

 

[jpaul]

The race and size of the child were noticeably absent from the report - if you had a 10year oil reported by mum heading towards you with a pair of shears,
I suspect you'd damage them more if you disarmed using a baton - tazer is non-lethal

 

[Caracus2k]

Yeah I kinda gathered that a stab vest didn't cover those areas. Perhaps a stab onesie would be appropriate?

About as appropriate as a tin foil hat and a straight jacket might be for you.

So what did police use on kids before tasers?

Normally baton strikes or other physical blows if there was no armed response present. A taser is less likely to cause lasting injury or death in a healthy young person vs baton strikes.

Going by your logic there is no cut off point. An abused kid that's lost it!

Yes thats the point.... if the person has 'lost it' people call on the police to deal. Ideally a verbal resolution would be prefrable with the person dropping their weapon but if that doesn't happen the police have to deal with what's in front of them.

How about that? Granted if someone lunged with a weapon, i get that.

You are already likely too late if you wait *until* someone is in the act of lunging at another person to deploy taser.

For starters tasers have a quite high 'failure' rate and is effectively 'one shot' in scenarios like this (unlike a pistol or other conventional firearm). If you are going to use taser it's best to use it 1) where you have a fall back plan for if it doesn't work or 2) are using it as a near last resort.

If the kid had died then what?

All force runs the risk of injury or in some cases death. The generally acceptation presumption is that police will act to defend people being attacked from thoose trying to attack them. Not stand by and allow someone to get stabbed because a perpetrator might get hurt or in rarer cases killed if police do act (in the UK where police aren't routinely armed with firearms)

This sounds absolutely awful so I hope this will teach her a lesson. I bet they won't be asking her to cut the hedge for a while.

I very much doubt the kid, high on drugs, has ever actually used a pair of shears for their normal intended purpose....

 

[Fr0dders]

Emotional claptrap of the sort that frequently litters these threads.

Officers are taught something in some of their training where someone is placed in front of them with a knife (a prop rubber one).

The 'stooge' is told to try and stab the officer. The officer tries to draw their baton (or in the states their gun) from their utility belt to defend themselves.

Most will fail this task at anything under around 21 meters in distance.

As I said it's largely irrelevant whether your are dealing with a child, a woman or anyone else when looking at a gun or edged weapon.

The relevant thing is their ability to use that weapon and their demeanor and their actions to indicate the likelihood of them doing so.

Given the above example within a typical UK household enviroment there will be a very small timeframe to act even where a weapon has already been drawn by an officer.

Theres nothing emotional about it. What's the worst that could happen should the police fail to successfully intervene and the mother gets stabbed and killed by the child. And my reaction to that is And ?? the child was going to do it anyway. What difference does it make the police were unable to stop it. The child was obviously intent on doing it anyway. If the child did it in front of officers wearing a bodycam it's an open and shut case for the prosecution and off to a young offenders institute they go for the killing of the parent.

Completely ignoring the separate point about how likely the child was to actually kill their mother at 10 and how easily a police officer could physially overwhelm a 10 year old, my point still stands. The police fail to prevent hundreds of murders per year. What difference does it make for this one they also failed to prevent because the officers were at the scene and tried to diffuse the situation rather than jump straight to using a taser. As another poster already mentioned, how on earth did police officers deal with this sort of thing before tasers were invented ?

I completely get the point that this is how officers have been trained, and they're only doing their job and what has been asked of them. But I think this is 100% the problem - the culture within the police and that of the officers is this black and white view of the situation that means tasering a child is seen as a proportial response to the threat that the child may injure their parent. I disagree and it's time the police culture changed. Times are changing and it's becoming more and more obvious that more people than ever are not happy with the way police deal with this type of incident and would rather officers try and diffuse situations like this and risk the child carrying out the act they were inteinding to, rather than going around tasing children.

Judging by the fact the officer is facing gross misconduct charges for unreasonable force - i'm not the only one that thinks this.

 

[Caracus2k]

Theres nothing emotional about it. What's the worst that could happen should the police fail to successfully intervene and the mother gets stabbed and killed by the child. And my reaction to that is And ?? the child was going to do it anyway. What difference does it make the police were unable to stop it. The child was obviously intent on doing it anyway. If the child did it in front of officers wearing a bodycam it's an open and shut case for the prosecution and off to a young offenders institute they go for the killing of the parent.

Completely ignoring the separate point about how likely the child was to actually kill their mother at 10 and how easily a police officer could physially overwhelm a 10 year old, my point still stands. The police fail to prevent hundreds of murders per year. What difference does it make for this one they also failed to prevent because the officers were at the scene and tried to diffuse the situation rather than jump straight to using a taser. As another poster already mentioned, how on earth did polie officers deal with this sort of thing before tasers were invented ?

There are increasingly moments in time where I read something, I re read it and it's just as bat **** crazy as it was the 1st time!

The idea that the police should stand by and do nothing more than gather evidence as one person stabs another in front of them really is an egregious example of the above!

So having done nothing as one person stabs another the police are still likely left with one person armed with a weapon that they have to deal with.... what then?

I completely get the point that this is how officers have been trained, and they're only doing their job and what has been asked of them. But I think this is 100% the problem - the culture within the police and that of the officers is this black and white view of the situation that means tasering a child is seen as a proportial response to the threat that the child may injure their parent.

It's not just a risk of 'injury' is it.
It's a pair of shears.

I can only think some people have watched too many movies and think that police officers are able to effortlessly disarm people without using any weapons themselves.

I disagree and it's time the police culture changed. Times are changing and it's becoming more and more obvious that more people than ever are not happy with the way police deal with this type of incident and would rather officers try and diffuse situations like this and risk the child carrying out the act they were inteinding to, rather than going around tasing children.

Says the archair pundit who I wage had never had a job where the application of physical force was an inevitable neccesity.

Judging by the fact the officer is facing gross misconduct charges for unreasonable force - i'm not the only one that thinks this.

I think police are increasingly placed in invidious situations. I'm sure the officers body worn is far more instructive then the reporting alone is and the officers actions may well be disproportionate and judged accordingly.


But it's risible when people suggest that police should not, in pretty much any circumstances, use a taser in a case where someone is armed with a lethal weapon, with apparent intent to use it because they are a 'child'

 

[Fr0dders]

The idea that the police should stand by and do nothing more than gather evidence as one person stabs another in front of them really is an egregious example of the above!

So having done nothing as one person stabs another the police are still likely left with one person armed with a weapon that they have to deal with.... what then?

Now you're just cherry picking words and taking them out of context. Nowhere did I say they should stand by and do nothing and gather evidence. I repeatedly said they should try and intervene and diffuse the situation without resorting to the use of a taser. How did the police deal with this before tasers were issued to police officers. Back in the 80s and 90s when they had no tasers how on earth did they survive without them ?

At the end of the day, the officer has been charged with gross misconduct so the IOPC agree with me. We'll see what the court finds.

 

[Caracus2k]

Now you're just cherry picking words and taking them out of context. Nowhere did I say they should stand by and do nothing and gather evidence. I repeatedly said they should try and intervene and diffuse the situation without resorting to the use of a taser. How did the police deal with this before tasers were issued to police officers. Back in the 80s and 90s when they had no tasers how on earth did they survive without them ?

At the end of the day, the officer has been charged with gross misconduct so the IOPC agree with me. We'll see what the court finds.

Put down the shears/ knife etc or I'll tell you to put them down again....

There's about a 50/50 chance you are a parody poster at this point

 

[Fr0dders]

Put down the shears/ knife etc or I'll tell you to put them down again....

There's about a 50/50 chance you are a parody poster at this point

The year is 1983. The police officer is called to a report of a disturbance at a domestic property. upon entering the house they are greeted by a parent who is concerned about the behaviour of their 10 year old child who is acting aggressively and has a pair of garden shears and is threatening to stab the parent.

What are their options ? Because the black and white view that their only option was to tase them isn't an option. tasers haven't been authorised for use by the UK police yet. What can they do ? You're being very narrow minded if you think the only way that somebody can think that it isn't a black and white choice as to whether to taser the child or not is a parody poster.

 

[Caracus2k]

The year is 1983. The police officer is called to a report of a disturbance at a domestic property. upon entering the house they are greeted by a parent who is concerned about the behaviour of their 10 year old child who is acting aggressively and has a pair of garden shears and is threatening to stab the parent.

What are their options ? Because the black and white view that their only option was to tase them isn't an option.

if they are resolved to use force their 'tactical options' mainly revolve around batton strikes....

something I have already explained is far more likely to result in significant injury or death when deployed on a younger adult or child.

And also something that places the officer at greater risk.

 

[Fr0dders]

ah so there are options then. Glad we agree.

 

[sg0]

About as appropriate as a tin foil hat and a straight jacket might be for you.

Emotional claptrap of the sort that frequently litters these threads.

You're the one getting emotional! If you can't handle other people's opinions then I think forums are not for you.

I reckon if you told a copper 30 years ago on how you deal with a 10 year old girl with garden shears is by shooting twice with anything they would p**s their pants.