Soldato
So if a woman accuses a man of abuse and there's no evidence either way, we should assume she's telling the truth
Poll: This Johnny Depp Stuff
- Thread starter Dirk Diggler
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So if a woman accuses a man of abuse and there's no evidence either way, we should assume she's telling the truth
Man of Honour
The body language experts will be along shortly disecting this. Although all the tells are pretty clear in the first few minutes alone.
Soldato
This. Is. The. Point. You have to believe the ACCUSATION a woman makes. Then it has to go through due process. The fact so many of you are arguing against believing accusation is so boneheadedly ignorant.
Any report of abuse has to be investigated. For the record again, I’ll state that the punishments for a false report need to be greater. But for a report of abuse to be investigated, the initial accusation must be believed. This has been the problem before any of these feminist movements picked up traction; the idea of somebody accusing Weinstein of abuse previously would be met with a “she’s just angry she didn’t get the role”.
Being told I’m the one clutching is mad. Any accusation of abuse needs to be taken seriously and investigated. It’s very easy for a bunch of men on an Internet forum to say “I’m sure they are”, but historically THEY HAVE NOT. This is why anybody making an accusation of abuse should be believed, and why I believe the idea of #BelieveWoman is correct (capitalised because this has been missed) IN THIS CURRENT CLIMATE. This way of thinking is a radical change to the status quo; regardless of how liberal a lot of you may think you are, society is not.
Genuinely find it bizarre that so many here are against believing somebody at face value when they make an accusation.
And again, I think Amber is the abuser. I believe she should suffer the consequences of her actions and I’m totally happy that Depp has a chance to get her life back in order. The point I originally tried to make (after the obvious toxicity in this thread) is that a victory for men is not a defeat for women. This is a victory for victims of abuse, but this should not discredit any feminist movements just because one person has very publicly lied through her teeth and tried to use that movement as a justification.
so like in the trial she persists in a vitreolic, arrogant discourse full of indignation, and lack of humility - that must be the real her ?
if she had chosen to present herself differently in the trial she could have won the jury over.
I guess you cannot survey people(the actual social media audience who really decided the outcome) on whether they agreed with the trial outcome, but Depp has not rebounded
if she had chosen to present herself differently in the trial she could have won the jury over.
I guess you cannot survey people(the actual social media audience who really decided the outcome) on whether they agreed with the trial outcome, but Depp has not rebounded
Depp’s popularity dips following defamation trial
- The share of U.S. adults with a “very” or “somewhat” favorable view of Depp declined 12 percentage points from 68% in an April survey to 56% in a June survey conducted after the six-week trial concluded.
- In April, Depp’s favorability rating among baby boomers was 59%. In June, that figure dropped to 37%.
- Younger respondents found Depp much more likable than their older peers after the trial: 70% of Gen Z adults held a favorable view after the trial, down just 2 percentage points since April, while his favorability rating among millennials dropped 6 points, to 72%.
- Depp’s favorability rating among men dropped from 67% to 52%, compared to a 9-point drop-off among women in the same time frame.
- The “Pirates of the Caribbean” star’s popularity fell from 70% to 55% among Democrats and from 68% to 55% among independents. He saw a smaller decrease among Republicans, from 65% to 57%.
Soldato
So if a woman accuses a man of abuse and there's no evidence either way, we should assume she's telling the truth
No, if a woman accused a man of of abuse, I’d expect her accusation to be believed to the point of investigation. If that investigation shows no evidence to back the claim up then it can’t be proved and used to charge the man. Charges are dropped, no impact (beyond reputational) beyond that. If the woman is found to be falsifying, then I would 100% expect equivalent charges against her.
In the same way that if you reported your car stolen, I would assume the police would consider your report to be genuine and investigate it accordingly. You wouldn’t expect them to start accusing you of insurance fraud.
Soldato
Again you’re taking what I’m saying out of context. I believe my posts above probably flesh my stance out on it better.
But even saying “innocent until proven guilty” still relies on somebody believing the original accusation to some degree for it to even be investigated in the first place.
I think what situations for this request is more punitive action on people raising false claims. But you need to balance that against victims of abuse to feel supported in coming out against their abuser. Lest we forget how many children abused by Saville over a climate of fear, or how many women abused/raped by Weinstein for fear of their career and dreams to speak out against him.
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I think you'll find that those results specially the boomers vs gen x/z/whatever could be down to how they receive their news.
With older generations more likely to read main stream news and watch main stream news coverage, whereas younger generations will more likely get their news from a multitude of social media outlets.
It's safe to say that MSM were very much pro Amber and against Depp where they could manipulate the facts/narative, while social media was pro Depp and against Amber, where the facts/evidence were presented unedited.
Soldato
I’ve genuinely been baffled by the BBCs coverage of the trial, definitely didn’t reflect Depp’s success and Heards dishonesty.
Associate
Domestic violence against women is very real and very widespread throughout the world. Here in the UK we have a very real problem with it, don't underestimate it.
It does happen the other way about, although most goes unnoticed and unreported due to embarasment from the mans side.
JD's case has highlighed it from the mans POV and for me the evedence was overwhelming with Heard a compusive liar and schemer. Even now she is still in denial and blaming everyone else.
Women don't often lie about it, (Heard had a game plan) the truth comes out because the Police are called and it's there to see, but most goes unreported with the women suffering in silence. Unlike Heard who screwed up and had no injuries to show the police, hence the "take 2".
I know a bit about it because a very close relative worked for womans aid for over 30 years before retiring. She maned the help lines and arranged refuge space, but flash points, ie weekends, man home from the pub drunk etc were the busy times.
The Hostels are full and struggling to cope with demand.
So yes I assume the worst when a woman reports abuse as it's usually true, abuse doesn't always mean violence either, manipulation and intimidation is also very real in domestic abuse.
JD had support, he was believed by womans groups because they know it happens and the evedence in this case was easy to see but there is a hard core who just simply won't believe him and claim this will set back womems rights, it wont, it did however highlight its not all one sided.
It does happen the other way about, although most goes unnoticed and unreported due to embarasment from the mans side.
JD's case has highlighed it from the mans POV and for me the evedence was overwhelming with Heard a compusive liar and schemer. Even now she is still in denial and blaming everyone else.
Women don't often lie about it, (Heard had a game plan) the truth comes out because the Police are called and it's there to see, but most goes unreported with the women suffering in silence. Unlike Heard who screwed up and had no injuries to show the police, hence the "take 2".
I know a bit about it because a very close relative worked for womans aid for over 30 years before retiring. She maned the help lines and arranged refuge space, but flash points, ie weekends, man home from the pub drunk etc were the busy times.
The Hostels are full and struggling to cope with demand.
So yes I assume the worst when a woman reports abuse as it's usually true, abuse doesn't always mean violence either, manipulation and intimidation is also very real in domestic abuse.
JD had support, he was believed by womans groups because they know it happens and the evedence in this case was easy to see but there is a hard core who just simply won't believe him and claim this will set back womems rights, it wont, it did however highlight its not all one sided.
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I'm not at surprised at the biased broadcasting corperation, the level of wokeness is off the scale. I just didn't expect them to be so bleeding obvious and to completely ignore evidence/facts.
That. Is. Not. What. You. Said. What you actually said was:
What you stated was that women should be believed until evidence proved otherwise. If there is no evidence possible (because, for example, the woman accuses the man of assaulting her when there were no other witnesses or no other evidence possible either way, then your position is to keep believing the woman.
It's also truly bizarre that some people can't see how sexist it is to believe all women. Why is the position to always believe the woman? Surely it should be "believe all accusers"? In fact it shouldn't even be "believe" but instead should be "investigate all accusations".
Soldato
I’ve clarified my point and you’re continuing to ignore it. Are you arguing simply with my original post of which I have expanded upon?
Believe all women at the point of accusation because historically we as a society have marginalised them and they have suffered for it. If no evidence supports the claim, then dismiss it. If they have been shown to lie, prosecute them. If you can’t understand why “Believe Women” was used over “Believe Everybody”, then I’m confused. It’s about changing peoples perception. But you know this isn’t the point I’m arguing, and I don’t know why you’re continuing down this line when I have explained myself over the last few posts.
Believe all women at the point of accusation because historically we as a society have marginalised them and they have suffered for it. If no evidence supports the claim, then dismiss it. If they have been shown to lie, prosecute them. If you can’t understand why “Believe Women” was used over “Believe Everybody”, then I’m confused. It’s about changing peoples perception. But you know this isn’t the point I’m arguing, and I don’t know why you’re continuing down this line when I have explained myself over the last few posts.
I am not ignoring it. I am addressing what I feel is your inconsistent position.
But let's move on from that. I have a question; do we believe all men as well? If I made an accusation about someone then should I be believed absolutely, until the other party proved otherwise?
e.g. I made an accusation against a woman then should I be assumed to be the victim and they the aggressor until they proved they were not?
Soldato
Yes, absolutely! And I feel you’re trying to subvert my point around believing women and suggesting, yet again, that we “believe everybody” instead again. And I genuinely hope that isn’t your next reply, because it’s entirely discounting everything I just said about women being marginalised.
You shouldn't let gender blind you. We should believe those who have been proven.
So what you're saying is, that it's okay to believe a woman, regardless of whether she is telling the truth or not. But you don't want to believe anything a man says, purely because of his gender.
What on earth happened to equality and everybody being treat the same?
Soldato
Equality does not represent equity. That’s kind of the basic premise around certain underprivileged groups requiring more help in life, which is what your typical white male perspective really struggles to grasp.
Soldato
Eurgh.
Soldato
Good point, well made.
I am not trying to subvert your point. But can you not see how inconsistent it is to prioritise believing all women and at the same time saying believe everyone. They are inconsistent positions.
Surely we just need to take every accusation seriously. Spreading the message that all women should be believed implies their position should be believed more than men.
I would rather live in an equal society where everyone is treated the same regardless of gender.
Appreciate that comment wasn't in reply to me. But it is another racist and sexist comment by you.
You have insulted white people as a group for being unable to grasp something.
You have insulted men as a group for being unable to grasp something.
You have insulted women as a group for all requiring more help in life.