Poll: This Johnny Depp Stuff

[Haggisman]

No, if a woman accused a man of of abuse, I’d expect her accusation to be believed to the point of investigation. If that investigation shows no evidence to back the claim up then it can’t be proved and used to charge the man. Charges are dropped, no impact (beyond reputational) beyond that. If the woman is found to be falsifying, then I would 100% expect equivalent charges against her.

That's not believing the accusation, that's accepting the possibility the accusation is true. Believing the accusation suggests a bias in looking for evidence that the event occurred rather than looking for evidence of what actually happened.

And you say "no impact (beyond reputational)" as if that is somehow negligible. As clearly shown in exactly this case, reputational damage can be devastating. And while JD has lost millions purely because of an accusation - which has subsequently been found false - he is in the fortunate position that he has the resources behind him to recover and the fame to have the full process broadcast to the world so they can see his innocence. What about regular people who's careers are destroyed and families ripped apart because of false accusations?

It's extremely unfair that the accused has their name dragged through the mud before any hint of guilt is established, while the accuser often gets to remain anonymous.

So yes I assume the worst when a woman reports abuse as it's usually true, abuse doesn't always mean violence either, manipulation and intimidation is also very real in domestic abuse.

Do you do the same when a man reports abuse? When you start actually looking at the statistics, there's not really that big a discrepancy between the numbers of male/female victims. That's without taking into account the fact that men are almost certainly less likely to report/admit it due to fear of being seen as weak etc.

 

[MoNkeE]

I am not trying to subvert your point. But can you not see how inconsistent it is to prioritise believing all women and at the same time saying believe everyone. They are inconsistent positions.

Surely we just need to take every accusation seriously. Spreading the message that all women should be believed implies their position should be believed more than men.

I would rather live in an equal society where everyone is treated the same regardless of gender.

It’s a phrase around challenging prejudices, not a carved in stone commandment. The very reason these prejudices DO exist is why the movement exists.

 

[C Kent]

Equality does not represent equity. That’s kind of the basic premise around certain underprivileged groups requiring more help in life, which is what your typical white male perspective really struggles to grasp.

Ok, let's take further education as a starting point. According to you, under privileged groups require more help yes? Working class white boys/young men are the lowest represented group going to university, so I assume you are all for affirmative action for that group?

Slightly off topic but I fully expect this simple question drills into your wider social attitudes.

 

[Roar87]

Equality does not represent equity. That’s kind of the basic premise around certain underprivileged groups requiring more help in life, which is what your typical white male perspective really struggles to grasp.

Why don't you start treating people as individuals instead of focusing on their group identity, ******* hell you people are so stupid. Some white guy can be brought up in the poorest conditions imaginable, where as a black lesbian might have parents who are doctors, yet you're basing your entire world perspective on their group identity, how does that make any sense? You've no clue what type of upbringing or privilege people have in life just by looking at their immutable characteristics.

 

[chroniclard]

Usual subjects provoking non existent war on woke still.

 

[MadMossy]

Appreciate that comment wasn't in reply to me. But it is another racist and sexist comment by you.

You have insulted white people as a group for being unable to grasp something.
You have insulted men as a group for being unable to grasp something.
You have insulted women as a group for all requiring more help in life.

Not relevant and in no way a response to this other than it reminded me of a clip I saw recently of Andrew Neil vs An activist.

Where she claimed minority groups are under performing and under educated etc etc

He came back with facts, where it clearly shows that when it comes to further education, white students are doing worse than all other races when it comes to further education and university, with asian doing the best. I believe it was something like 33% white students go on to further education/university, 37% black, and something like 70% asian.

 

[Dis86]

Is there an acceptable halfway house where you are well satisfied that JD won as it was clearly the right results based on the evidence, and you look at Amber Heard with a level of severe dislike of her for what she has put JD through, but then fell a bit icky about the apparent vitriol some people are continuing to go after her in various full on ways, when at the end of the day she is actually a human being? That is kind of where I am at on this.

She may be a human being, but she's certainly a vile one.

 

[Hades]

It’s a phrase around challenging prejudices, not a carved in stone commandment. The very reason these prejudices DO exist is why the movement exists.

Fighting historic prejudices with modern day prejudices doesn't rid the world of prejudice. It does the exact opposite and perpetuates it. We have to learn to treat everyone equally regardless of race and gender.

This is exactly why so many people followed the Depp/Heard case when it became clear that he had been wronged by societal prejudices against men, and cheered when a jury found in his favour. That prejudice against men had been fanned by the #believeallwomen movement.

 

[MoNkeE]

Ok, let's take further education as a starting point. According to you, under privileged groups require more help yes? Working class white boys/young men are the lowest represented group going to university, so I assume you are all for affirmative action for that group?

Slightly off topic but I fully expect this simple question drills into your wider social attitudes.

Genuinely don’t know enough about that subject to give an opinion on it I’m afraid! Is that showing white men being rejected for university or just that less are applying compared to other groups, genuinely don’t know. Are white men complaining about not being allowed in to universities? Are white men choosing to take other opportunities rather than further education?

Why don't you start treating people as individuals instead of focusing on their group identity, ******* hell you people are so stupid. Some white guy can be brought up in the poorest conditions imaginable, where as a black lesbian might have parents who are doctors, yet you're basing your entire world perspective on their group identity, how does that make any sense? You've no clue what type of upbringing or privilege people have in life just by looking at their immutable characteristics.

Well that was an… interesting read!

 

[darael]

Equality does not represent equity. That’s kind of the basic premise around certain underprivileged groups requiring more help in life, which is what your typical white male perspective really struggles to grasp.

But if I was a black female, I'd suddenly grasp it? Nice assumption.

People really fall over themselves when they choose to put equality to one side and treat people just because of how they see them.

 

[MoNkeE]

Fighting historic prejudices with modern day prejudices doesn't rid the world of prejudice. It does the exact opposite and perpetuates it. We have to learn to treat everyone equally regardless of race and gender.

This is exactly why so many people followed the Depp/Heard case when it became clear that he had been wronged by societal prejudices against men, and cheered when a jury found in his favour. That prejudice against men had been fanned by the #believeallwomen movement.

Genuinely interesting view, I just don’t think I agree with it. But I respect your position on it and ability to convey it constructively.

 

[Angilion]

I’m a firm believer that #BelieveWomen is an appropriate phrase to band around in the current climate. [..]

I'm a firm believer that each person is a person and should be treated as a person. I don't care how fashionable any particular strain of extreme irrational prejudice is at any given time. It's wrong.

You're advocating that guilt be assumed solely on the basis of your belief in unchosen group identity. Belief in unchosen group identity is advocating that people be treated as non-people, merely interchangeable tokens of an unchosen group identity. Belief in unchosen group identity is traditionally expressed with the phrase "They're all the same" because that's what it is. That honesty isn't part of the currently fashionable strains of belief in unchosen group identity but the belief itself hasn't changed at all. It's merely been rebranded without any changes.

I have difficulty understanding the wildly irrational extreme prejudice required for your position. You're advocating that anyone who you consider to be a wrong unchosen group identity be stripped of legal protection entirely. Subject to arbitrary conviction and punishment without a trial, without an investigation and without a chance to defend themself, solely for being the wrong sex, the wrong "race" or whatever. How can anyone think that's a good idea? I don't get it.

EDIT: I see you pretended to contradict yourself in later posts, claiming that when you wrote that what you consider to be inferior group identities should be presumed guilty you didn't mean it. But you did mean it and you do mean it. You continue to advocate it. You continue to advocate belief in unchosen group identity. You continue to advocate for blatant and extreme racism and sexism in all things. You put up the usual flimsy pretence labelled "equity" to pretend irrational prejudice and discrimination is fair, but it's a very flimsy pretence. You don't even believe it yourself, of course. Nobody does because it's just a politically convenient excuse for irrational prejudice. That's why you're not advocating for discrimination in education against female people and people who aren't "white" despite the fact that "equity" would call for exactly that. You're consistent in advocating only the sexism you like and the racism you like. Just like any other sexist and racist. The idea of "equity" as an excuse for irrayional prejudice and discrimination is like coating a turd with a thin smearing of honey. It's still a turd. No. It's worse than that. It's a corruption of the whole idea of equality. Which is why it's done by irrationally prejudiced people who are politically astute enough to realise that equality is their most important target and the most effective way to destroy it is to corrupt it.

 

[MoNkeE]

I believe that if a woman claims they’ve been the victim of abuse then it should be investigated. That’s it. Not that we should assume the abuser did it as fact, just that we should believe enough to conduct a fair investigation. This has not happened over the last few decades. That’s a long old post you’ve made and I hope you’ve read my subsequent ones expanding on my opinion.

 

[james.miller]

I don't think anybody knows your opinion, you've rewritten it at least three times now. And you wonder why eurgh is all I could be bothered to write.

If serious accusations are made, there is a duty to investigate them. That does not mean they should be believed, it means find the evidence to support them, if that evidence exists.

We absolutely should NOT believe all women without question. Nor men, or anything else in-between. If people still want to believe all women then this trial has taught them nothing at all and that's their problem, not mine.

 

[MoNkeE]

But if I was a black female, I'd suddenly grasp it? Nice assumption.

No, I’m saying people who have spent their life in a privileged position tend to not realise their privilege.

 

[Hagar]

I remember the trouble that the police got into implicitly believing one young man above the testimony of a few people he accused falsely of sexual abuse.

 

[Tefal]

I’m a firm believer that #BelieveWomen is an appropriate phrase to band around in the current climate. The downfall of , Spacey et al are great examples of how rich and powerful men have gotten away with this for decades if not more. The plight of women is a very real one and should be endorsed by everyone.

Errrrr

 

[MadMossy]

I remember the trouble that the police got into implicitly believing one young man above the testimony of a few people he accused falsely of sexual abuse.

Or that US actor who made accusations of racism/assault to further his career, only for it to backfire on him.

Much like this very situation with AH.

 

[TriedandTested]

This. Is. The. Point. You have to believe the ACCUSATION a woman makes. Then it has to go through due process. The fact so many of you are arguing against believing accusation is so boneheadedly ignorant.

No you don't. You can take an accusation seriously, doesn't mean you HAVE to believe the accuser. People lie, people can say things out of hate or heightened emtions. Too many variables just to take their word at face value. Doesn't make it true just because they've said it is.

You take it seriously because it's a very serious thing to accuse someone of...and to be accused of!

 

[TriedandTested]

I believe that if a woman claims they’ve been the victim of abuse then it should be investigated. That’s it. Not that we should assume the abuser did it as fact, just that we should believe enough to conduct a fair investigation. This has not happened over the last few decades. That’s a long old post you’ve made and I hope you’ve read my subsequent ones expanding on my opinion.

That's NOT what you said first time. No wonder people are confused by what you say each time you post.