Poll: This Johnny Depp Stuff
- Thread starter Dirk Diggler
- Start date
The first one is excellent. 2nd and 3rd go together and are alright. Then it just gets silly. Watch the 1st one if anything it's a good watch and peek JD acting (for that role)
Soldato
Social media is sooo important in the fight to hold individuals acountable and bring them to justice...Well, unless it's me.
Soldato
Well this is a much more productive and constructive way of arguing with somebody, rather than the insults you resorted to last time, so thank you for taking the time to write a reply worthy of reading.
I understand what you’re saying, and whilst you write eloquently and authoritatively, I don’t see it changing my view point.
Your first point, you’re just arguing pointless semantics here, and I’m thoroughly surprised you have the time to do that. I think it’s crystal clear that the point of “believe women” is to take their accusation at face value. This is something that has scarcely been done in decades past, especially against rich and powerful individuals. Do you disagree with the premise of believing a woman when they step forwards with an accusation? Whatever due process comes afterwards will prove or disprove the case, but this is what the movement is about - breaking down prejudices that women make flippant claims of abuse. And I will note for the bazillionth time, I’m sure that there are in fact false reports but these are in a the tiny minority. And they should be dealt with severely. It doesn’t change the fact we have a culture of disbelieving women, and hopefully this is slowly changing. For the sake of our mothers, sisters, wives and daughters, I hope that it changes. I genuinely can’t see why any rational person would refute this.
Beyond that, I don’t see there’s any merit in discussing what I (or anybody else) means by Believe Women, because surely you understand it.
The rest of your post is kind of… pointless? I mean I get the point you’re making but it’s very speculative?
Caporegime
This is where I think most of us differ from you. The issue is "believe women" implies that you think they are telling the truth, therefore when the accused says that they are innocent you must side with the woman because if you believe one person is telling the truth and the other person doesn't agree with them then they must be lying. No one is suggesting that we shouldn't take accusations seriously and investigate but the "believe women" slogan doesn't hold water when you consider it. The fact that plenty of people also genuinely believe that we should treat anyone accused of sexual assault as guilty based purely on an accusation should be a good reason not to promote this sort of thinking.
The Amber Heard case is a good example of people not following the case even a little bit but being ideologically wed to the idea that we should always believe women over men if they say they have been abused. Usually using #BelieveAllWomen.
The rich and powerful are never going to be held to account and this has been the same for men and women forever. The way this manifests is usually just different for men and women. I believe in the premise of investigating without prejudice any accusation and providing support to anyone but this is at the heart of the issue. You are dealing with such a serious allegation and you need to both support the potential victim but also not become prejudiced against a potentially innocent person too.
I don't believe we have a culture of disbelieving women, I think we have an issue that our justice system runs on evidence and proof of guilt not proof of innocence so there is no way to actually prosecute a huge number of scumbags. This is the case in all areas of crime. I was on a jury last year where it is very likely that the people in front of us committed the crime. The evidence didn't satisfy the required level of proof however so the verdict had to be not guilty.
We can do better at dealing with cases of abuse and sexual assault for sure but much like all the other hot topics at the moment, the frothing masses do their cause no good by taking everything far too simplistically and being far too blunt and one dimensional with their arguments and requests. Focus on the changes they want to see in policing, investigation and encouraging women to come forward as soon as possible. Stop peddling meaningless slogans like "believe all women" which just starts arguments and doesn't offer solutions.
Man of Honour
This point you keep trying to hammer home, it's just not true. I mean I get that it's a popular narrative these days, among other strong views fuelled by social media, but it's not true.
I genuinely can't see why any rational person would believe what you're saying
Soldato
We also have a culture of dismissing male victims of abuse by ridiculing and emasculating them and telling them to "man up", not to mention the fear of the very real possibility that the abuser (in this case the woman) will flip the situation around to portray herself as the victim and the man as the abuser. Outdated attitudes like yours with phrases like "BelieveAllwomen" only help to perpetuate this.
Standard social media posting 101, appeal to the emotive rather than the factual.
Soldato
All these stories of abusive film directors (Weinstein), gymnastic coaches, football coaches, music producers (Kesha), TV stars (Saville, Harris), film stars (Spacey), even politicians - the majority of these cases only coming to light YEARS after the event due to people feeling unsupported or unable to challenge an authority figure in their line of work etc, and you’re all still saying there’s no culture of disregarding abuse victims? 
Man of Honour
All these stories of abusive film directors (Weinstein), gymnastic coaches, football coaches, music producers (Kesha), TV stars (Saville, Harris), film stars (Spacey), even politicians - the majority of these cases only coming to light YEARS after the event due to people feeling unsupported or unable to challenge an authority figure in their line of work etc, and you’re all still saying there’s no culture of disregarding abuse victims?
Not even sure what your point is with that, you're massively clutching now. You're going on about believing women, but the majority of victims in those cases you mentioned, were male. Spacey, football coaches, Saville, Harris etc. So what's your point? Is it abuse victims as a whole or just female ones?
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Soldato
All these stories of abusive film directors (Weinstein), gymnastic coaches, football coaches, music producers (Kesha), TV stars (Saville, Harris), film stars (Spacey), even politicians - the majority of these cases only coming to light YEARS after the event due to people feeling unsupported or unable to challenge an authority figure in their line of work etc, and you’re all still saying there’s no culture of disregarding abuse victims?
Your lumping everyone in the same category, none of us are disregarding abuse victims, the only "victim" we are disregarding is Amber Heard who has been proven by a court of law to have lied about it, and might I add continue to lie about it even after being found liable for defamation for the lies.
In those situations you listed above it took someone coming forward with the allegations and evidence to spark an influx of more victims to come forward, many may not have had any evidence hence why they never came forward before, because in a game of he said/she said its incredibly hard to win anything. Is that wrong, absolutely, but its the law and to ignore it one situation would then imply you can ignore it in all. Then we'll just end up with a giant s*** storm of chaos. As mentioned by someone else, men are far less likely to come forward out of fear of being perceived as weak.
Caporegime
All these stories of abusive film directors (Weinstein), gymnastic coaches, football coaches, music producers (Kesha), TV stars (Saville, Harris), film stars (Spacey), even politicians - the majority of these cases only coming to light YEARS after the event due to people feeling unsupported or unable to challenge an authority figure in their line of work etc, and you’re all still saying there’s no culture of disregarding abuse victims?
We're saying that there isn't that anymore and that its not a men vs women thing. What about the church? What about the care system? Boys and girls were abused which is why cutting this down gender lines is silly. There is also a difference between feeling and reality. Something that we seem to have lost sight of in modern society. The strength of your emotions don't dictate the strength of your argument.
As myself and others have said, the world isn't perfect and if you come forward and accuse someone of rape and there is 0 evidence, it doesn't matter if you are telling the truth. You won't get your day in court and your abuser won't get punished. It's **** but it's unavoidable. That doesn't mean that we are failing those people or that we can do better.
Perhaps we need to be more pragmatic about this and educate people that the system is not and will never be perfect but that isn't a reason not to try and hold people accountable rather than promoting stories of peoples claims going nowhere as proof of a bad system that can be fixed. That is far more damaging than making people understand why these things don't go anywhere sometimes.
Ideologically I have no issue with what the more extreme elements say at times but practically speaking they are in cloud cuckoo land. When someone suggests not getting drunk to the point of blacking out or not walking through a dark park at night they are accused of victim blaming. It's not victim blaming, its common sense to behave in a way that protects yourself from the current reality of the world rather than acting like the world is perfect and full of lovely people. Should parks be safe at night and should you be able to get as drunk as you like without fear? Of course. But you can't at the moment so don't. I don't walk out onto a zebra crossing without checking for cars because eventually I will get hit. Its not my fault but I will still suffer the consequences and that driver might just drive off.
Man of Honour
Reports coming in that Heard has been sacked by Warner Brothers following the disgrace of an interview.
Wonder who she will blame now for this...
Wonder who she will blame now for this...
Soldato
Ya what??
Soldato
It's crazy I know but she's the type of woman after everything that has gone on would pick up the phone and ask to get back together.
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It seems to me that she's repeated the abuse accusations in that interview. I doubt Depp would do it but she's putting herself at risk of being sued again.